How to Build a Better Feedback Culture

Feedback should help people grow, not make them defensive.

In this episode, host Russel chats with HR expert and leadership coach Carolyn Troyan about what healthy feedback cultures look like, why trust and psychological safety matter, and how leaders can shift from giving advice to coaching better conversations.

They also explore peer feedback, cultural differences, people leadership and why feedback works best when it becomes part of everyday work—not an annual event.

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Transcript

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Russel Lolacher: And on the show today we have Carolyn Troyan, and here is why she is awesome. She's an HR expert and leadership coach. It all shows up in her consultancy. She's the president and CEO of it, called Leadership 360 LLC. It's an HR consulting and leadership coaching firm.

She brings 25 years of experience to the table. Previously global HR executive. Uh, those are the roles she typically had in Electronic Arts, uh, TIBCO Software, and Siebel Systems, and she's here today to talk about, well, feedback culture. Hello, Carolyn.

Carolyn Troyan: Hello. Thanks for having me.

Russel Lolacher: Yeah, no, excited to talk. Uh, it's a nighttime conversation we're having.

I'm not used to that. My caffeine has ebbed and flowed throughout the day, but we I can feel we have enough energy for this. I

Carolyn Troyan: We're gonna be good. We can do this.

Russel Lolacher: We're gonna be great. We'll be great. Um, so to kick off the conversation, 'cause I have so many questions, especially how feedback has sort of shifted

Carolyn Troyan: Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: in some of the conversations I've heard recently, and I'm curious about your take on it.

But before we do that, Carolyn, I have to ask the question I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best or worst employee experience?

Carolyn Troyan: Ooh, let's see. I w- I'll go for the worst. I'll pick the worst category. Um, it was one of my first jobs. I was a telemarketer working on Long Island, calling into New Yorkers who were not so happy to hear my phone call. I was selling carpet cleaning, and they were like, it's... I think it was, like, 20 bucks an hour, and that was a while ago, so it was big money.

And, um, you know, just I basically got berated and hung up on for, like, eight hours. I went home. I just cried to my mom, like, "I don't think I can go back. Like, this isn't the job for me." She's like, "Just give it another chance." I literally never sold... I think the month that I worked there, I didn't sell one carpet cleaning.

But I ended up just talking to people. Like, the people that would talk to me were lonely, they were older, and I think I realized, okay, I need to do something that's more human connection. I'm not really a salesperson. Um, but yeah, it was, it was pretty intense first day of work, I would say, out of my whole career.

I always remember that one.

Russel Lolacher: Did that, how did the ecosy-- I'm always curious about those jobs 'cause I've never had those, those jobs. I've been in the service industry a long time, but not that put myself in the line of fire positions where you're cold calling people. What's the leadership ecosystem around that? Because if you're getting paid 20 bucks an hour, you're obviously getting paid way more 'cause nobody wants to do that job, so they have to entice you.

But around you, are they trying to work on your mental health? Are they trying to make... Or are you just a cog in a wheel going, "Eh, if you're gone on Tuesday, it's okay"?

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, it was, it was, it was all about the leaderboard and the sales. It was a very sales-oriented culture. So it was like, "Can you make the leaderboard this week?" And there were people that were great at it, and like they were really motivated by making money and making leaderboard, and I had no interest in that.

So it was very inter- and there was no mental health. It was like, "Here's the phone book." Like, this is how old I am. "Here's the phone book. You take page 36. Here's your script. Go for it." No training. Um, you know, "Let us know if you have questions," you know. So I, I think, you know, from there I realized, like, it could probably be improved.

But, um, but yeah, it, it taught me a lot and it motivated me to go to college and get a good job so I didn't ever have to do that for the rest of my life. So it was a good motivation for me, definitely. Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: before I get into the defining question, did you... So you took the job, you were in it, like what? A month?

Carolyn Troyan: I think it lasted like a month

Russel Lolacher: Okay. I was gonna ask if you asked for any feedback during that

Carolyn Troyan: Ooh.

Russel Lolacher: someone who is, like, trying to get better at this job. I mean, obviously it wasn't the career gig, but you're obviously not selling anything, so you're kinda sucked at it.

So just kinda curious if you tried to work, like, to get improved.

Carolyn Troyan: question. I remember I had a very sweet woman next to me who was older, and so I just pulled her aside and I was like, "Yeah, I need some help. Like, I'm clearly not doing something right.

Everyone's hanging up on me." And so then I ha- actually listened in on a couple of her calls, and so that was quite helpful. So she sort of took me under her wing a little bit, and I think just felt horrible for me, like, "This girl has no clue what she's doing," and sh- you know. Um, so, you know, I think it was just the grace of the peer, like the peer mentorship that got me through at least a

Russel Lolacher: True

Carolyn Troyan: month. But, um, but yeah, I, I could tell I wasn't enjoying it, and I was like, "I don't know if I can keep doing this." Um, it's just so mentally exhausting, so. But yeah, that's the benefit of having a great peer that, like, really took me under her wing and said, "Just listen into some of my calls and you'll see. I'll teach you a couple tips."

So that was helpful. Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: Purely out of feeling horrible for you and feeling pity, like, "I'm gonna mentor this

Carolyn Troyan: what she's doing. Yeah. Yep.

Russel Lolacher: So we're getting into feedback culture, uh, as our conversation today. I, I like to sort of set parameters, set guidelines, set the table in what we're talking about. What do you mean when you're talking feedback culture? The f- we, we, uh, had a conversation like a while back to set this up, and you're like, "Feedback culture.

I, I wanna talk about it." I'm like, "Great, what the hell is it?" So I w- I held off the question till now. So Carolyn, oh yeah, I held back. What are you even talking about, Carolyn?

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, I think, um, some of the healthiest companies that I've either worked at or consulted at, there's this culture where people value feedback and they're always asking for it, and feedback isn't seen as this negative thing. It's seen as a very positive thing that everyone needs to grow, um, and that the feedback really in, in the best cultures I've seen really just comes from your own peers.

And so they're-- you can trust they're always gonna tell you in the moment, "Hey, you know, I think you could've done better on that," or, "I just wanna give you some positive feedback, like you were great in that meeting." And it, it got-- The phrase that always comes up is, "It felt like everyone had your back."

Like when I talk to teams, like what does it feel like, these high-performing teams? Like, "Everyone has my back, and I know if I'm failing, they're gonna tell me and they're gonna tell me right away, and they're gonna try to help me, and I know they're coming w- with good intentions." And so when you have those teams that can kind of almost l- you know, they're like self-operating teams where they're giving each other feedback.

They're, they, they're not gonna win at everything, but they're always trying to kind of get better as a team. That's what I mean by feedback culture and, and it's less in some ways about the leader. I mean, the leader creates the culture for that to happen and make sure that the feedback is getting to who it needs to, but that they kind of start with each other, I think is really important.

And then the manager is there coaching, but they already have the feedback and the employee is sort of driving, "Hey, got this feedback. I've tried X, Y, and Z. I really need your help now. Like, I'm really at a loss of what to do." Um, so those are the healthiest feedback cultures I've seen. It's very hard to get there.

It takes years. It's, you know, it takes-- it's really in their culture, um, or in the culture of even those individual teams on how they're gonna operate around feedback. So that's, that's what I mean, like a healthy feedback culture would look like to me. That's what I've seen.

Russel Lolacher: So what does that mean separate... And I'm trying to understand the organic nature of this because most organizations just say from the HR department going, "Give feedback. You should give feedback. Did I mention you should give feedback?" And that seems so, like, go do a thing as opposed to what you're talking about, which feels more organic.

So it-- How, how do you integrate that in? You're, I mean, you're talking about le- leaders modeling this, but what is that rubber hit the road to operationalize it from a culture

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on your business. Like, what I would say in consulting, some of the best consulting cultures I've seen, it was based-- it was in their, grained in their system to be doing that throughout the project and then have a project wrap up. So they wouldn't wait for a performance review.

They'd like, "Okay, we are a project team. We're coming together for, to deliver this consulting project. We're gonna give each other feedback along the way, and then we're gonna do, like, a end of the project feedback session." And, uh, to me, that's what you have to look at is w-what makes sense for the work, 'cause that team came together, but then they were gonna disperse.

They weren't gonna be together forever, you know? They might work again on another project, or they might not. And then you have some teams that are pretty consistently working together and, um, there I've seen different things work. Sometimes it's, um, one-on-ones. They have a lot more one-on-ones with each other, and in the one-on-ones, they proactively ask for feedback and say, I, you know, they, they are pulling the feedback from their team members 'cause it's still awkward for people.

Even feedback cultures, you know, it's still like, who's gonna be the driver? And so what I've seen is that the employees become the driver of really asking for feedback, um, and they take advantage of one-on-ones, um, uh, to get that, and then they're also mostly talking to their manager about what they're hearing every month.

It's not-- So it's sort of a process that is living, and it's not this, like, "I'm gonna hold all this feedback until this HR process and then I'm gonna give it to you all," but it's actually, like, three to six months old, and that now I feel horrible 'cause I haven't told you in the moment. Now you don't trust me.

So I-I, it's this more organic... I have seen some HR teams get rid of the six-month annual review and go to these monthly feedback sessions with, with their peers and their manager, and then they pick one thing they're gonna work on for the m-month, and then they try to get better at it, and then it might go two or three months, depending on how they're doing.

And so I think that cadence, like the monthly cadence with the leader, I've seen work the best. It's not too much where it's like every week I'm talking about yet another thing I have to change. It, it, it's consistent. People have time to work on something. Um, and it's also positive feedback, too, not just constructive feedback.

So it's in the moment, but you can start building it in. I think the other big piece is training all employees on how to give each other feedback. Like, that's the one thing I've seen that really does create the culture. It's one thing to train managers on how to give feedback, but if I learn how to give you feedback as a peer, then I'm gonna feel more comfortable, and we're gonna start doing that, and that becomes acceptable, and in fact, it's actually praised if you're doing that a lot.

So there are different mechanisms I've seen work, but those are probably some of my favorites that I've seen.

Russel Lolacher: So why do we suck at it so much? Like, you're even, you, you mentioned right off the top, you're like, "Our feedback culture, this is so hard to get to." I'm like, even just dipping our toe into this is impo- it seems impossible. What is the roadblocks to us getting better at this?

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah. It's so interesting. When I do trainings for leaders and employees on this, I just-- You know, 'cause it's such a logical thing. This logical thing like, "I can't change unless I have the feedback, but I'm so scared to ask for the feedback." So it's like this-- We talk about this sort of vicious circle that you get into of never getting it.

I think it's a trust thing, and maybe I don't really trust you yet, and so is it, is it coming from a trusted source? Do I know that you're there to help me? Um, it's the fight or flight response. You know? Like we kind of-- When, when someone says the word feedback, for most people it's like, "Oh no, here comes negative stuff I've done wrong."

So even the word itself I've seen as I've talked to employees versus just saying, "Gosh, I'd love to chat about that meeting. Um, you know, I think you did a great job and it could've been even better." Like n-not even using feedback I think actually helps, because some people just have this fight or flight and they're not sure, are you there to-- Is this gonna hurt me or are you trying to help me?

So anyway, there's lots of techniques you can use to get around that. But it is really hard, 'cause that's our go-to and we always-- Every-- When I do the training, everyone just assumes negative to start, which is interesting, and I think that's where people start versus saying, "This person's really trying to help me," or, "They're really just gonna give me some positive feedback, and that's okay."

So yeah, it's difficult.

Russel Lolacher: I'm talking to leaders about, and listening a lot about the leadership ecosystem. And I've come up with, like, seven roadblocks that really stop leaders from being good. And I did a presentation recently, and something came up that's really nailing it for me with this conversation, is that one of the biggest problems to great leadership is avoidance.

It's the fear of conflict. And on one side of me was thinking, well, people just don't want to feel uncomfortable. And, and that's, and that is a piece of it. I've known executives that were the nicest person in the world, horrible leaders, because they were never wanting to rock the boat. And feedback, if it's critical, can be considered that.

Carolyn Troyan: Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: The other piece, and I'm curious what you think about this, is I don't want to do it 'cause it's more work for me.

Carolyn Troyan: Hmm.

Russel Lolacher: It's the avoidance of I know this is a challenging employee to give feedback. They're gonna have to work on it. I'm gonna have to follow up. That's gonna be a struggle. You know what? It's better if I don't say anything.

And then the whole culture suffers for it. But, but I, I was doing a presentation recently and that came up a lot. It was just sort of like a, "You know what? I got enough to do. I don't want to have to do that, too." I'm like, "Oh, wow, that is horrible."

Carolyn Troyan: I think it's the sense of, and I've seen this also, is the importance of people management versus, you know, especially this, so many people managers are also required to do IC work. You know, there is-- it's hard to find companies at this point, except as you get more senior, where managers are just doing people management, and I think that's what's really interesting.

So, you know, am I gonna get rewarded for doing some IC work and designing this great architecture, or am I gonna be rewarded for managing my team to greatness? And I think setting the tone that people management is really critical and, and rewarding and showcasing leaders who are great at it and who have great engagement scores, who have high-performing teams, you have to do that because if not, you kind of send mixed signals.

Like, yeah, feedback's important, but you know what? We really need that board presentation by, like, Monday. So can you just delay meeting with your team or your one-on-one? So I, I think it kind of is tone from the top on the importance of it, and those are the people who get promoted, and they're the people that end up having a bigger impact on the organization.

So yeah, it's, it's interesting, though. It is, it is more work. I, I do know leaders who do it well and, you know, they do it in these small increments versus it's... I think managers think it's just gonna have to be this big conversation versus, "Hey, let's just grab a coffee and chat after that meeting," or, "I just wanted to tell you this great piece of feedback now that I've got you."

You're very specific, you know, and so it's very quick. Um, it doesn't have to be some big sit-down one-on-one. It could be five positive comments throughout a week and then one constructive one, right? So they're really building that trust with that employee. So I think when you can break it down to leaders that it's not some big, huge conversation, um, sometimes it does have to be that way if, if the, the point in time feedback isn't, they're not getting it.

But that kind of makes it a little easier for managers. Feels more manageable to do that versus I've got to make it this big hour conversation I have to prep and prepare for and, um, yeah. It's really interesting.

Russel Lolacher: Are there some, are there some key ingredients to good feedback? 'Cause I know there's a lot of people that will even be almost too soft in their feedback, so there's no impact. It's one, it's one of the things that's bothering me these days that we talk about intention. I'm like, intention means nothing if you haven't figured out what the impact is.

And, and th- that comes huge in feedback because our intention is to improve. But if we're conflict avoidant or we're not prepared, then we might soften the blow, and then it helps nobody. So what are the ingredients to good feedback? Y- y- you know, the kindness, but impactful

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, I think you have to start with intention. I really like that you used that word. Um, by saying, "Hey, I care deeply about you. I think you're g- you're gonna be this amazing performer on our team. My job is to make you successful." You know, like, why are you giving the person the feedback?

Or something like, "Hey, our relationship with peers is really important to me. I really look up to you. I really wanna-- I'd love to have this conversation with you." So I think if you could start with that, the intention is to help, it's, it h- it gets rid of that fight or flight. It's like, "I'm here to help."

And, you know, if you haven't given them any positive feedback before that conversation, they might still be a little skeptical. So, you know, before you go in, finding one or two things just to compliment them on that are real . Um, so they're like, "Oh, this person really does see I'm doing good work, th-this is...

And they're here to help." So anything you can do to set up that conversation to avoid the fight or flight before you even get into the impact, I think is really important. And then it goes back to very specific, you know, "I'm here to help. I'm here to make you successful. I want our whole team to be successful.

Um, do you remember this meeting?" Like, "Have you seen-- Do you remember talking to the team about this project?" And so I think you have to go to, like, are we watching the same movie? Like, the specific event. Don't make it about, "I just wish you were more strategic," or, you know, like, "Do you remember on Monday at 5:00 or 4:00, you presented to the CEO and, you know, there really wasn't much of a setup, and here's the..."

You know, "Do you remember?" And try to get them to say, "Yeah, I remember." And maybe they say, "So glad you brought that up. I, I have lost sleep on this. It was a horrible meeting." Like, you don't have to beat someone up if they already realize that they didn't do well. So if you can get them to see the movie and say, "Yeah, I really struggled, you know, I'd love some help on that," it, it makes it so much easier than you...

What I see managers do is they just, they have their script and they're like, "You remember the meeting, da, da, da, da, da." Like, and the employee hasn't even said a word yet, and it's like, "What'd you think? What was your takeaway?" And kind of see what they remember. Um, so that's, those are the kind of the best setup ways to do it.

And then you get into, "Well, when you did that, it had an impact because the people around the table didn't really understand the bigger picture. You know, you kinda launched into the details, and that can-- we kinda lost executives along the way, and they really couldn't buy into what we were trying to do.

So what might you do differently?" You know? Um, so I-- a lot of it is just making sure you disable the fight or flight. It's not the sandwich. That's where people mess up. They go, "Oh, I'm gonna do the sandwich. I'm gonna do positive, negative, positive." Which actually no one will ever believe a positive statement you're gonna say 'cause they just

Russel Lolacher: Your employees aren't dumb. They see right through that.

Carolyn Troyan: Right.

They're like, "You're just buttering me up. What's the f- what's the real feedback?" But I think saying, "My intention is here to help you," is okay, and, "I really want you to be successful. I really wanna talk about this meeting. Do you remember it?" Um, and get them to try to get to the next set of actions on their own.

I always talk about it's different to be a manager versus a coach, and so you can direct someone to do something and just say, "So next time I really would like the first three slides of that presentation to be big picture. Thanks. Okay, I gotta run to my next meeting." Versus what, what might you do differently to kind of set that bigger context and see if they can come up with it on their own.

And people are more likely to change their behavior if it's their own idea and they're motivated to try and experiment and say, "Let's experiment. How could I support you in that?" "Okay, maybe we can meet before the meeting. Could you look at my slides and maybe we could go through them together?" Um, so it's kind of switching from being a delegator task, "I'm gonna direct you to do something," to can you get them to see the learnings by asking really smart open-ended questions that lead them to that.

Uh, so those are some of the best feedback conversations I've seen managers do.

Russel Lolacher: And there's nothing wrong with some direction. I can't tell you how many interpretive dances leaders do, bad leaders do, where you have to try to figure out what they meant. Nothing wrong with that, but I do like that you're talking about humanizing it quite a bit too, because a lot of feedback seems to focus on performance,

Carolyn Troyan: Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: 'cause performance reviews is about delivering a thing, about a widget, about a...

But we work with humans, we don't work with robots. So one of the biggest things, I think, in building that trust and that psychological safety is, and I love that you gave them examples of how did you show up in that meeting? How did the impact of your words impact other people? Not did you do the three steps I told you to do to get to the thing?

That's important too, but the humanizing of the experience and the environment and trying to help them and coach them through that,

I think is vastly as important in building that trust than just go, go do job

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah. Yeah. Or I'm just gonna give you the answer, you know, versus... I think the other thing is be okay with experimenting with different things. Like, what might you try? I'm thinking this, I might try that. Okay, well let's-- what are some experiments we could do together on that? Or there's another meeting coming up, what's the next time that you can give them another at bat relatively quickly, and then ask them what support...

They may not need much support. They might be like, "I got it. I totally messed up. You know, I, I-- next time will be better. Here's... I could use a little support, but I, I, I got the feedback. I'm good." And then maybe it's a one and done conversation, and that's where it doesn't have to be this big thing, and you're catching it soon enough.

They do the second presentation and you're supporting them and they still struggle, then you're back to the drawing board and say, "Okay, what else could we try? What else might help?" Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's an iterative approach, and I think that's what's hard for managers. It does feel like a lot of work versus just giving them the answer.

But it's, it, it will stick better and you'll get faster turnaround and better performance from your employees if you do it the right way, so...

Russel Lolacher: So I've got two litmus tests for your, for your amazingly fictional, uh, feedback culture that, uh, we would love to aspire to do. Um, the first is diversity.

Carolyn Troyan: Mm.

Russel Lolacher: does, how does it show up in an... And I-- My immediate gut was when you were talking earlier about people are looking for feedback, I'm like, not everybody.

There are certain generations that are way more eager to get that feedback than other generations. How... And that, I'm not even getting into like cultural, geo

Carolyn Troyan: Hope so. Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: How does feedback shift and change and morph based on diversity?

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah. Um, well, I of course always go to the culture thing first, 'cause if I think about a lot of my global jobs feedback, and then Asian culture is very different than the US culture. You would never give someone feedback directly, especially to someone who's more senior. Oh my God. And then you go to Sweden, it's like, no, everyone's going to the fika, and you can give feedback to the head of the studio or whoever you want.

That's totally normal. You know? So I think actually I always go to the global culture can be quite different, and if you're operating with a global team, being very sensitive to that. Um, I don't know about, yeah, the age diversity. You brought that up generationally. I do see this next set of generations being much more open to feedback, and it's, it's interesting, I would say You know, if I'm like Gen X, like w- at first it was like, God, people, they just wanna have career conversations like every week.

I was a latchkey kid, like, you know, figure it out, you know? So I think there was some of that that happened that we're probably through at this point. But once I really said, it's like, "Well, what do you mean by career conversation?" They're like, "Well, could-- Listen, do you just want-- do you wanna bring in an article that you're excited about and we could talk about?"

"Yeah, that's what I mean." So I think it's also we talk past each other, particularly when it comes not just to feedback, but I would like to have a career conversation. And some people will say, "Oh gosh, they wanna get promoted again. I feel like I just had this conversation," but really they're just looking for mentoring, and they wanna talk about interesting subjects with you, and they wanna learn from you.

So I think a lot of times, at least I found with myself when I became a new manager and there were these sort of go-getters, I was like, "Do the work, then we'll talk about career development." But what they were really wanting more mentoring, more mentoring time. And so I think you have to go, what, what does good look like for you?

What does that mean? Um, so I think we do ta-talk past each other a lot generationally on that. Um, I don't know. Other pieces, I feel like, you know, in the diversity work I did, I think it goes back to just psychological safety and that, uh, it feels like a safe environment for me to ask for feedback, um, and that's okay.

I think that, you know, my voice is at the table. People notice if I'm not talking in the meeting, um, and that the leader is sort of patrolling that and, and looking at, hold on a second, that that woman's got cut off every meeting for the last five meetings. That's not okay. So, uh, you know, I think the psychological safety has to be there for the feedback culture to work or else, you know, are you really-- are you giving me feedback for the right reason, or are you giving people on the team feedback that I don't feel comfortable giving them because it's making me uncomfortable?

So peer feedback works, but there are scenarios, especially in diversity situations, where it doesn't really work. Like the manager might have to get involved and give that feedback. Um, so yeah, it's, it does come up and, but I've seen a lot, a lot of it, uh, more difficult ones are, have been culturally, um, particularly dealing, uh, you know, with employees in Asia or in Sweden, like very d- uh, cultures that are very different from what we would experience in the US and how do you make these feedback systems work globally, not just in a US setting, so.

Russel Lolacher: And, and that just really hammers home if you want to be a leader, not just a manager, but an actual leader, get to know your team. Get to know where they're from, get to know their backgrounds, get to know what works. Google. Like if, if... Or ask them directly, "How do you prefer feedback? How, how are you traditionally?

How is it impactful to you?" Because if you're sitting in a silo in your little office on the other side of the room, you're doing yourself no favors in building... Again, the podcast is called Relationships at Work. I'm a bit of a champion on that. So

Carolyn Troyan: Get to know

Russel Lolacher: it's in the

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah. No, it's so true. It's so true. And, you know, asking how they also want positive feedback. I think I-- when I was first manager, I assumed everyone wanted to be praised in public, and I had one employee who was like, "Please don't ever do that again." And I was like, "Really?" "No, just, just pull me aside one-on-one.

It'll be just as meaningful." Like, okay, great, you know? So it's, um, yeah, get to know your team. Totally get that.

Russel Lolacher: And you touched on, you touched on the other litmus test that I was thinking about, which is the hierarchy issue. Because I'll be honest with Carolyn, there's a lot of horrible leaders at the executive level, and they've been rewarded for not having to be great leaders. They just... 'Cause they produce, because they deliver, which is not leadership, that is delivery.

But there are people under them going, "I got some feedback for you." I'm pointing up right now. I got some feedback in the hierarchy chart. But there are culturally, me being Canadian, you being

American, where there is organizations where they will look at you funny if you go on the wrong floor because you don't have the right classification, where how dare you even talk to the CEO.

In your magical, mystical feedback culture, what does it look like to provide feedback up?

Carolyn Troyan: Oh, yeah. I think they're-- Where it would work the best, one is it would be great if, but this is very hard to find, where there's a way the employee feels comfortable just telling the manager, you know, "Hey, I've got a great idea for the team. I really wanna help." They come at it in a positive way, like, "It would be great if we did X, Y, and Z as a team.

I think that would really help us." Um, it's har- unless you have a very great relationship with your manager, that can be really a tough conversation. Um, I find those cultures that really do a fair amount of engagement surveys and really The data matters. Like if you get a low engagement score as a manager and they're looking at, you know, your communication style, your feedback, your performance, um, that, that there's like someone gets involved or HR person gets involved to coach you.

Like the-- there is like a meeting that's held on, "Okay, what are the different actions we can take as a team to make our team stronger?" And you know. And so like the system comes in to help and sort of support that manager that's struggling. Now, sometimes they take over teams that are broken, and it takes them a while to fix the culture, and that's okay.

So I think you have to be careful that if you do use engagement surveys, it isn't like the hammer. It's like, okay, let's look at the situation. Okay, this team has been broken. This is a new manager. It's gonna take them six to 12 months. Let's give them a year. Let's give them some extra HR support. Let's bring in some coaches or whatever we need to do to make that culture better and support that leader.

Um, those are the cultures that are great, and you don't get promoted unless you have good engagement scores. It all is sort of like the buck stops with the promotions. That's what I've seen. And the minute, you know, the person who's doing the promotion review says, "Oh, what was the engagement score? What was it last year?"

You know, "Oh, wow, what a great turnaround. That person actually should get rewarded. They really did a great job." Or, "They're struggling. Do they have more support? What's the context?" Um, when you actually have to show good engagement scores to get promoted, that's when I've seen the rubber meet the road.

It's like there's no excuse.

Russel Lolacher: I love that.

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, and that's-- those are the best cultures I've worked in because it was so clear. It was very clear, like you're not getting to the next level until you can prove yourself as a people leader. It's just not acceptable. Um, I think the only time I've seen that fail is maybe in the sales cultures, where you have a great salesperson who's just horrible to work with.

Um, and even then, eventually, you know, something happens, and they, they're not in a leadership role, they become an IC. I think this pressure for everyone to become a people leader too, sort of getting rid of that and having a dual structure to say, "You can be a fantastic IC. You can be-- You can make it all the way to the VP level as an individual contributor, or you can be a great people leader, and we love both.

We need both." Particularly at technical organizations, really successful technical teams have both. So you have to sort of look at like, what are the systemic things that are pushing people into people manager jobs that maybe absolutely hate being people managers. You know, like, and they're not good at it, but they're great ICs.

So like why not value that, you know, in our society and also in the company? Um, that was a huge re-release valve I saw, that that was okay and that we-- it was talked about, it was celebrated. They had their own meetings around technical topics that they held in offsites, just like the people mate leaders did.

So, uh, you have to look at the whole system and why it's pushing people into these roles that maybe aren't really great people managers.

Russel Lolacher: Fair comment. The individual contributor is phenomenal, but then again, don't have anybody report to them. Put them in a bunker and let them deliver, but, and, and, but do not have them... And that's great, and that's fantastic, but having them have any touch points with others can actually do more damage to your culture than just, you know, letting, letting them go.

Because we're talking a lot about vulnerability is what it sounds like, because putting people in these conversations, putting peoples in these experiences, if it's negative, then that's uncomfortable for the giver and for the listener. Even if it's positive, some people will be like, "Oh, you actually see me.

You actually recognize what the value that I'm providing." And that can be very... I remember having a conversation with two phenomenal employees, and I'd been working with them for years, and then fin- they didn't report to me. They weren't on my team, but my team worked with them all the time. And then one day I'm like, got them to come into my office.

I'm like, "Can I just tell you how phenomenal you two are? Like, my team raves about you. You are so great to work with. You, you know, never a day goes by that when we engage with you, we're not looking forward to it." They both looked at me in stunned silence and had never, ever, ever been told that before.

They'd never been given positive feedback in the years they'd been in that organization. My heart broke, but it was super vulnerable in that

moment because I'm like, "Oh, I, I didn't mean to be the precedent. Like, I was hoping I...

Carolyn Troyan: like, "Oh, no."

Russel Lolacher: I'm sorry you gotta go back to that environment now, but, but it was very vulnerable.

So how do you make it comfortable in a culture with vulnerability to allow for that kind of feedback that's so helpful?

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, I think one of the best leader sh- leader conversations I heard about is a leader who admitted they also had struggled with that. So, you know, just saying, "I, I've been in your shoes. I went through this in my own career. It was really hard for me, but I was so glad that I had a mentor that taught me how to, like, deal with this.

Your path is maybe totally different, but I think I can help you." So I, I think-- And you can't-- It doesn't always apply. It has to be real. Like, you really had to go through that. You can't just make it up. But if you can actually be vulnerable to say, "I also struggled with this in my career. It was really tough, but we're gonna get through it together, and I'm here to support you.

Let's talk about some ideas of things you could try," I think then it makes the-- I think there's just creates this bond of trust with that leader. Like, wow, they're super vulnerable. They're not perfect either. Like, I've yet to-- None of us in leadership roles are perfect, right? So I think just admitting, even to say, "I never struggled with that, but I also got some feedback that really changed my career trajectory.

Can I tell you that story?" Um, and so I, I do try to get leaders to tell their own feedback stories, um, as we're kicking off manager and employee training, 'cause I think it's really important that the employees realize they're getting feedback too in their career, and it helped them, and it was a good thing.

Um, so I, I do feel vulnerability in that moment is, is important for leaders, uh, to share some of those stories of how feedback helped them, and then what they took away from it, and how it wasn't scary, and how it allowed them to, to get better at their craft. So that's, that's one thing I just love when leaders are able to do that, kind of set the stage.

Russel Lolacher: Love that. We're-- Let's throw on the magic wand a little bit more here for a minute.

Carolyn Troyan: Hmm.

Russel Lolacher: Hiring is where we start the relationship with new employees, new leadership.

Carolyn Troyan: Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: Where can we do a better job of helping leaders and new employees understand the importance of a feedback culture right at that level?

Because that's where we're really starting everything

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, I think-- gosh, that is a really good question. I don't think-- I'm trying to think of any clients that do a great job. Probably Netflix is very clear that they have a feedback culture, and that in order to thrive, you have to be comfortable with feedback. So I feel like in the interview process, talking about that, that that's important, you have to be comfortable, it's a part of our culture.

It's, you know, it sort of sets the tone before you even get there, like, "Oh, I better be ready for feedback." Like, this is an expectation. Um, I don't, you know, the best recruiters I worked with were really good at giving the c- the candidates feedback throughout the process that, you know, versus just saying, you know, more-- recruiters are just the rah-rah recruiters.

I feel like the, the candidate really needs feedback. Like, "You did great, but I don't think the story that you told me really came through, because I didn't hear it in the feedback. Like, tell me how it went for you." So I don't know, I guess that's another way of if you can train your recruiters on how to give candidates feedback throughout the process so that they can also learn.

Um, but I think it's sort of the talking about it from the beginning. There are some companies I've seen that do what they call a culture interview, um, where they actually train like a cadre of interviewers, like maybe five to 10. They're smaller companies usually, and they'll say, "Okay, you're gonna-- here are the points in our culture that are really important.

You're gonna be the independent person coming in that isn't on this team normally to say, 'Yeah, this person's gonna fit in in our culture or not.'" And that, and it doesn't mean they can kill a candidate. It's like another point of view on if they're gonna make it in your culture or not. And so I've seen that work if it's done well, um, where it's tr- there's good training and there's clear things they can test candidates on that it's not just like, "I don't know if they'll fit in here," you know?

Like there has to be real examples, good behavioral questions. Um, so I've seen that, that work well for, for companies particularly who are growing really fast that are afraid they're gonna lose their culture. Um, I've seen that, that, uh, be really effective, so...

Russel Lolacher: I think one of the bigger missed opportunities too is the whole employee journey, because we treat it-- We go hiring right into onboarding, and onboarding's generally pretty horrible for a lot of people, and then we ignore people, and then they leave for maybe an exit interview. There's so much opportunity, like, that's not a performance review, but more of these...

They call them stay interviews. I hate that term. I like thrive interview, because I'm like, we don't want people just to stay. We want them to be-- want to stay

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, I love that.

Russel Lolacher: I like the idea of providing feedback as an organic piece of the journey as a leader where we shepherd them, I guess, through their journey, and hiring should just be the first step.

And even if they don't get hired, how many organizations are really good at giving feedback to prospective employees that didn't get the job.

Carolyn Troyan: Oh, yeah. That's... Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: So they could come back? Some are great, some are like ghost you immediately.

But that tells you a lot about the organization that you may have not got the job.

Maybe you missed a-- dodged a bullet.

Carolyn Troyan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I heard, I think it was the head of recruiting for IBM talking about how important it is. What do you do with the candidates that don't get the job? Or maybe they might be a fit for another job at your company. Like, and there are some organizations that just totally drop the ball. They never call people back even.

Like, it's just a horrific experience. And, and I remember just listening to this woman talk about how recruiting organizations will never truly be high performance unless they have a great process to deal with the people that don't get the job in a very systemic, wonderful way. And, and the way that she was talking about it was like, we owe this to society.

And I thought it was really interesting. As recruiters, we're gonna send these... What, are we just not gonna call people back? Like, that's horrible for our brand. It's horrible for our company. But how does that feel in society? And it was really, it just really was moving for me to think about what if all the recruiting agencies are, and recruiters around the world did that well, what a happy society we would have.

So anyway, yeah, I think there's a bigger, bigger goal to that, that whole experience too, so. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: Here's one I kinda wanna see what your insights are on, because I've seen a lot of conversations happening or been part of conversations where the term even feedback seems to be challenged because it's retroactive

Carolyn Troyan: Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: and generally thought as critical.

While the more preferred term seems to be advice, where it's more forward-thinking and positive. Now I'm being general, but feedback versus advice seems to be a, a bit of, bit of, you know, picking at the feedback idea. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, is it a thesaurus exercise? Are we talking about the same thing?

Or is it a framing it thing?

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, I don't even know if I like advice even, like, because what you're trying to do is to get the person to realize it. You know, you can help them on the journey by saying, "Here's something that happened. Here was the impact. What do you wanna do about it? Like, what would you do differently?" So I feel like for me, it's, it's becoming a great coach to your employee.

Giving advice is not always the best coaching to your employee. It's like illuminating the gap, getting them to try to think through what they might do differently. Maybe they need some training, maybe like how can you support them in this learning journey? So for me, it's like more the learning loop that we have to get back to and less about, um, advice or performance or feedback.

It's sort of like how do we have a learning culture? And right now with AI, I can't tell you how many clients are talking about this, because they know the only way they're gonna be successful is to have a learning and experimentation culture. Like, 'cause here it comes, and we have to figure out how we're gonna use it very quickly and try things and probably fail.

So I think in the, the AI world, it's becoming really critical to get it right, to have this learning culture and, and have managers who are great coaches that allow the employees to come up with their answers as much as they can. Um, maybe they provide some advice if they've been through something similar, but you also have to acknowledge they're on a different journey.

If you're talking to an African American woman and you're a white male, "Well, I also experienced this," but did you really? You know. So like you have to-- I think it's a careful line of being a leader to say, "I have advice. I've been through a similar situation, but I've never walked your journey, so how does it feel for you?

What, you know, let's ex- let's brainstorm some ideas. You go first." Um, so yeah, I think the nomenclature, I actually try to avoid the word feedback and talk about how can you be a great coach to your employees, what does that look like, practice the coaching behaviors, um, that'll make you a better leader. So that's my point of view.

Russel Lolacher: I, no, I love that because it pulls, it, in, in including coaching in it does remove the whole advice on it. And as a comms guy, I'm always worried that we're trying to use words instead of just fixing the thing we're trying to avoid now. Maybe you should just get better at giving feedback instead of going, "No, let's make it positive."

Why isn't your feedback positive? Why isn't that a positive experience? But if you reframe it differently, no, be a better leader. So yeah, no, uh, maybe they're m- fight or flight, they're flighting from feedback and trying to go, "Oh, now it's advice." Yeah, no. Get better at it.

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and if you avoid the word feedback and just say, "I'd love to, you know, talk about the meeting and what happened and, you know, what did you learn? What did I learn?" You know, kind of thing. It, it does help, and then eventually you can get employees more comfortable with it as over time.

Russel Lolacher: Love that. So to wrap it up, let's give some people some tips or thoughts. If they wanna, if they wanna start tomorrow

and create this magical, mystical feedback culture that we've talked about that is barely inexistent in any organization, but some are getting it right and it's something to aspire to, what do you recommend anybody listening to do tomorrow?

What is...

Carolyn Troyan: Oh.

Russel Lolacher: they can just dip their toe in and go, "Okay, I'm now moving in the direction of helping with a feedback culture in my organization"?

Carolyn Troyan: I think just practice something that feels easy to you. Like, pick a, a, a very easy piece of positive feedback. I'm just doing the easiest thing, and does-- did you kind of follow that model? What's my intent? Why am I giving you this? What was the specific situation that this person did something fabulous, and what was the amazing impact it had on the team or their peer?

And so I would just practice with something easy, and you can practice with, like, your family. Like, you know, "I'm gonna give my husband some feedback on doing the dishes. Here's what I'm gonna talk about." Um, so I just find whatever that lowest, easy, I'm just gonna play around with this. And I think, you know, give yourself some trial runs and realize you're probably not gonna get it right the first time, but that's okay.

You're learning, too. So I think we're just like, wanna be perfect, you know. Um, and just find someone to practice with, even if it's a peer, your HR person, and be like, "I really am practicing this. I, I have a tough conversation. Can I practice with you?" And, you know, give me some... This is the model I'm trying to, trying to follow.

Um, give me some feedback on my feedback. Uh, so just start small with some, like, easy positive feedback with someone that you already have a trusted relationship with and kind of play around with that and kind of work up to some of the harder scenarios. That's what I would say, and just start building that muscle.

Um, and just try to find one or two pieces of feedback every week that you can give the team. You know? It's just, like, very easy. Doesn't have to be this huge process that you go through either.

Russel Lolacher: That is Carolyn Troy, and she is an HR expert and leadership coach, and the president and CEO of her own consultancy called Leadership 360 LLC. Thank you so much for being here, Carolyn

Carolyn Troyan: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was really fun. I had a great time