Conscious Leadership Without Causing Harm

What does conscious leadership actually look like at work?

In this episode, Russel Lolacher talks with coaches Trevor Stevenson and Dale Allen of Conscious Lead Life about self-awareness, triggers, power, and how leaders can show up with more intention, care, and impact.

If you want to lead without overpowering others or operating on autopilot, this conversation is for you.

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Transcript

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Russel Lolacher: And on the show today, we have Trevor Stevenson and Dale Allen, and here's why they are awesome. They're the co-founders of Conscious Lead Life, a niche coaching firm that specializes in personal growth, wellbeing, leadership, and team development. And it's all centered around heightened awareness, conscious choices, healthy communication, and intentional behaviours.

They're also executive coaches, speakers, and fellow Canadians, and they're here. Hello to you both.

Dale Allen:  Hello. How are you?

Russel Lolacher: I'm great!

Trevor Stevenson: And a married couple. Hey, I know we're gonna touch on that, but you know, just, just raising the bar there a little bit of opportunity.

Russel Lolacher: More power to you. No, fair enough. I knew that ahead of time, but again, I mean, it is called Relationships at Work, so that could be a thing. But yeah, no, fair, fair point. Before we get into any of that, or air your dirty laundry, Trevor, I don't know why you brought that up, but anyway, before we get into

Trevor Stevenson: We haven't even started talking about the kids yet.

Russel Lolacher: Let's get into the first question I ask all of my guests, sir, which is to you both, what is your best or worst employee experience?

Trevor Stevenson: I was just telling my son this the other night, so it's top of mind. And, and I was his age about 15 years old actually, and, and pretty new. I've had a, a couple of other jobs and I grew up working on the farm, but I was working with a, a tradesman plumber, electrician, and he was, he was such a nice and kind and gentle man and I learned so much from him until.

Things didn't go well. And you know, whether it was, it actually, it wasn't often me, but if something went wrong on the job site and there was just, I, I don't know if there was a combination of things going on in his life at the time, but he would snap and be throwing tools and screaming, cursing. It was, it was pretty tyrannical.

And so, I got, I got to learn about almost a, a split personality thing because he would be so nice and so kind. But I also got I, I had a relationship with him, Russel, there was, I was able to kind of like mediate or, or moderate that his, his energy shortly after and he would come back and stuff.

But it was like, that was sort of the epitome. I, I'd never sort of experienced that kind of outburst. It was almost a Tourettes kind of thing. And so it's, it's really stuck with me, you know?

Russel Lolacher: How old were you when that happened?

Trevor Stevenson: I was about 15.

Russel Lolacher: Fifteen. And you're not, you're not around 15 now, so it tells you how much that has carried with you for so long. I, I have questions, but Dale, yourself. Okay.

Dale Allen: So mine is a best one. In university I worked in a restaurant a well-known restaurant that's a chain in the well in Canada. And there two owners were phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal, totally different personalities. There was one who is definitely all about the books and numbers and, you know, quite serious.

And the other one was like, fun and you know, just like really checked in with all of us. But together they were phenomenal. And what I love, love, loved is we had, so it's a restaurant and with, we had team building sessions. But now it's so interesting being a part, being in the work that we are, that just to watch how how much they took care of their employees.

So they treated their employees like they did their customers. It was phenomenal. So we would get really great discounts for going there. So we went there often and we'd bring our families and they would always, you know, maybe buy our, if you went with your family, they'd buy you a drink or a dessert.

It always encouraged us to be there even when we were off. So I just found it amazing when they did team building events, they did one where they thought about like the connections between every person like that a customer sees as they come into you know, meets in some fashion, even if they don't meet them directly.

So even if you're in the back of the house. But they made this connection. We all got to witness how much everything that we do is connected. It was so phenomenal. So their personalities were even though they were, they were so different. They complimented each other and their different styles allowed all of us to grow because you could see ourselves in either of those persons.

Right. Phenomenal. It, it's just fantastic.

Russel Lolacher: Interesting both of your stories in the sense that Dale, you were able to thrive and be better and be educated and understand your work and see the connections while Trevor is almost being, you know, considered an other because you are having to manage up and manage somebody's feelings to just to survive through the day.

Meanwhile, you know, Dale, you were able to connect with others and not have to worry about other people other than in how you interact with each other. So super curious. How do you carry that with you? Again, you both gave me some stories from when you were quite a bit younger.

Trevor Stevenson: Yeah, yeah, exactly that. So it would've been late teens, early twenties for you. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, what it has helped with Russel is just recognizing how, how, how things can just just switch in a moment from, everything's going great, everything's going great, and then just something takes it off course.

So I, I, I would start to see that, especially when I was, I, I had other bosses who were, you know, I, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this male who, who, where that switch would flip to anger.

Russel Lolacher: Hmm.

Trevor Stevenson: And I recognize there's a, there's a, a need for me to survive in that, of, step away from it, give it space. Take care of myself in a moment of okay, I've seen this before.

They're reacting. It's their thing. I like, I may have what I did, may have triggered it in some way, but I'm gonna, I need to let them cool down while I go over here and I need to like, get over whatever I've gone, got going on up here and then come back. And, and then the important thing is that coming back to it, that healing work of just re friending or building the, the relationship where we can then talk about it again of okay, so what was that?

What went on for you? What, you know, how do you freak out right then?

Russel Lolacher: Mm-hmm.

Trevor Stevenson: So that's been good and I, you know, recognize and, and Dale helps me see that in myself as well, which is good in parenting and such.

Russel Lolacher: Fair enough. Dale?

Dale Allen: So I think about those two often I'm still in touch as well, and. And, and they really do. I like, I speak about them and I, I would say I channel the energy that I received from them. So here's the thing, when it was super, super, super busy and it, people were in high stress. So they would always do things like at some point, you know, everything's moving really, really fast.

And they would gather us and we would all do a shot together. And I'm not talking because it's a shot, so it's not even about the drinking part you could drink or not. But that even in the busiest, most stressful, most tense times they brought us together. And so I felt like they were always looking out for us and knew that by looking out for us we would be looking out for the customers.

And I, it just, it translated so, so, so deeply. So it was like, you know, I, I share that as it was a shot, but it wasn't that, it was the essence of. Total wellness, like we see you right. And take care of you. Even though it's super, super, super busy. We can pause for a moment and what it would do every time is it would be like, it would take that kind of tension.

Tension and then we would just kind of drop, you know, into this kind of sense of we're okay, we've got this that has this just been with me for, you know, from time since since I've had that experience. It's so powerful and i's that's how we lead with our team and that's what we offer to folks as well.

It's like you can bring a pause in an amazing way. You can check in with your team in amazing ways and just, and most simple ways and it'll make such a difference in how they show up,

Russel Lolacher: Thank you for clarifying that. It's yeah, we do that as well. I mean, we stop at about 1130 each, have a shot, really bond with each other and move on. I'm like, okay, fair. Everybody's a little different. No judgment. Wait, wait a, wait. A team bond

Trevor Stevenson: Right? It was a breakfast restaurant. She forgot to say that. Right? That's why

Russel Lolacher: After the omelets. Jagger Meisters. Got it. Totally understand. Let's get into what we're talking about today, which is conscious leadership. I'm curious, so curious about this, but first we have to set the table and I throw it to both of you to ask the question, how do you define it? How do you define conscious leadership?

Dale Allen: I like to say consciousness is a, a mouthful, but conscious nonviolent leadership. So that's what I'd love to define. I think. So conscious to me means you can be aware, so of how you lead conscious leadership. You can be aware of how you lead conscious nonviolent leadership, which is what Trevor and I really practice is leadership is about how you use your power and how you help people find their power.

So being in a, you know, helping them feel empowered to respond, to take action, to lead themselves and, you know, their work, their teams, their colleagues in ways that are healthy and helpful for, you know, for the goals for themselves. Conscious nonviolent leadership to me is that you can be aware of how you lead, you can, which means you can be aware of how you use your power, but our question is, is are you helping people use their power?

Are you helping yourself use power in ways that don't overpower, right? That don't have people shrink, right? So that help, that actually has people rise. So it really is about how are, are you using your power for harm or for good.

Russel Lolacher: And I am assuming you're not throwing the word violent around, like we're talking people, throwing punches at work or being physical. I mean that does, and that can happen, but Right. But, but that is not normal and I'm assuming it doesn't happen. I, I'm assuming it doesn't happen so often. So I'm curious how your nonviolent associates itself with conscious leadership.

Trevor Stevenson: Maybe I'll, you know, it, we're, we're borrowing from Marshall Rosenberg, the founder and creator of Nonviolent Communication. And so it's a, it's a real foundation of the work that we do, Russel. And so, so my, my take on that same question is I, you know, and, and so, so semantics, but, you know, non harming, we can substitute that with, right.

And the, the consciousness part is, as, as Dale mentioned, it's really, that's our awareness, right? And then the non harming, why is it so important to us to go beyond consciousness? It's I know I'm angry, that's why I kicked the dog. Right? Or that's why I threw that hammer. But the, the non harming part is really like giving a shit enough about our impact on ourselves.

From the thinking that we're having, that impact that it creates within us. And then that cascading effect, like Dale said, about the, the, the power that we have. And, and to me that power is really the impact that I'm having on others, known or unknown. And do I care enough to, to shift my awareness and then my actions based on that awareness?

Russel Lolacher: And I, I just asked for the clarification because I don't want anybody listening that goes, well, if nobody's physically harming anybody at work, I don't have to listen any further. Right? It's just sort of, it's, it's understanding that this is not the automatic, this equals this. So I find understanding things of flipping the opposite of something helps clarify as well.

So maybe this seems a bit odd, but what is unconscious leadership then? Is it not knowing your impacts? Is it not, is it lack of mindfulness.

Dale Allen: Hmm. I, I do think unconscious leadership to me is when you're you don't, sorry, I was gonna say about more the action of it, but you're unaware of even the possibility of how you're showing up. So, so, it's kind of like that we find that people can be so focused on the task, you know, I've gotta get this thing done you know, by any means necessary that we're, we're not aware of the the emotional, the physiological impact that whatever it we're, we're trying to accomplish has on folks.

And so, you know, when you're talking about just asking about that clarification, I think if we became more conscious of things like we know that we're gonna give our, so for example, we know that we're giving bad news like in a reorg, we already know that. But if I'm conscious, I would go, just telling them isn't going to be okay.

It's going to bring up a lot of things for folks. So how might I tell them, how might I stay with them? Un until, you know, it actually, it doesn't feel good, but it's okay. So it's that, that one part I think there's in conscious there's this way of, I care to know the impact of this thing on you. 'cause in some ways, when I care, I would, I would actually check in about that, you know?

And, and so unconscious to me means that I don't actually have to think about it. I don't, I don't care to think about about it, but I don't think about it. It's automatic and and, and I don't kind of go into this reflective state. I don't, and, and sometimes it's choiceful and sometimes it's just that you just couldn't know.

Right. That, me,

Russel Lolacher: Go ahead. Sorry. Go.

Trevor Stevenson: well, that unconscious side, I think easily explained for me is we're we're just living out our conditioning on autopilot. So our reactivity in situations which is rooted right back to my farm upbringing. You know, and so how I get reactive when people aren't like all moving at the same time, let's say aren't all working and, and then I'll go into hyper management mode, or I used to, I've worked on it a lot.

And, and, and the same for, for people. You know, I work a lot with men now. And so default patterns that exist are when they are sad, frustrated, angry, disappointed. They will go one of a few directions. They'll go into solitude and, and they'll play the quiet game and, you know, passive aggressive kind of thing.

Or they'll go aggressive, aggressive and they will overpower as we were just saying. And there's, there's symptoms of that conditioning that show up for them that they're even unconscious to. And then as they, and, and that we were just mentioning a, a little while ago about the consciousness, like sometimes we start to become aware there's enough podcasts around, there's enough reels going on.

We realize the, the way that we're supposed to be. Showing up or a more evolved way. And so we can be conscious of it now, and it almost makes it worse. Russel, I see this so often because now I recognize how I'm showing up and the impact, but I don't know how to change it because I've got 40, 50 years of conditioning doing it a certain way, and that just freaks me out.

So I, I, I go more down into that solitude and head down, I'll just power through kind of thing, you know? And that, that's a, that's a really harmful place.

Russel Lolacher: What's an ideal state? So say you're working with someone and you're like, you are now a conscious leader. I have bestowed upon you the title of con. What is the ideal state that that person exemplifies, shows up as, contributes to an environment? What does that even look like?

Dale Allen: I love that question so much. So it's not static at all. Like it's not static. I mean, it's, it's kind of like, I was trying to concentrate on something for an entire day. It's just not possible. The brain doesn't work that day that way. So that, that's funny. The brain doesn't work that day. No, that's not true.

So it doesn't work that way. So what what we're really offering, I guess is just this way of saying if we get into a reflective way of being. So if I check in, if I'm more aware of, I'm not just perceiving through the intellect, right? So not just what did I say? Did I tell them the right thing?

So not just using the head, but actually looking at what other ways do, do we take in our environment? So what are other ways can I pulse, check on how my team's doing, how I'm doing. So we, you know, we can feel energy. You walk into a room, a boardroom and, and everyone stops talking. Everyone knows what that feels like, right?

So it's like when people say, you know, this energy is woowoo, you know, it's but you've, you've had that experience where you just kind of know that something's off. We, we help people perceive and use other ways to perceive not just the intellect. And when you do that, when you start to pick up and use other senses and other ways of sensing, you just kind of go, right, this is a gut check.

Oh, energy check. Wow. Hmm. My you know, I'm, I even, my, my, my I don't know, I can feel my muscles like they're just kind of tensing right now, or something like that. When you start to do that, you, you become aware in a moment of how things are going so you can do it more regularly rather than this being a constant state.

It's not that at all. We're just inviting people to go, oh, right. Are you willing to check in? Would you make that your practice for mental fitness? Right. Yeah.

Trevor Stevenson: That, that's what's coming up for me is, is similar and, and a simplified version of that for me, because life keeps ing right. You know, the, the, the perfect leader and conscious....

You know, it doesn't mean that all, all things in life become fabulous and it's a in a state of flow constantly. I, stuff keeps happening and I keep feeling these triggers that are so deeply rooted. But as Dale was saying, we ask ourselves the, the question of how am I being with what is because it, it's that impact on myself.

So how am I, foremost for me is that I'm taking care of myself as a conscious leader. I'm taking care of myself over and over and over and over again. And, and that might mean, as Dale just said, recognizing wherever that is in our body. And that's what we coach to sort of that somatic awareness as well.

And then, what am I going to do right now to shift that? You know, and we talk about, we, we we're into our fitness a little bit, so we'll drop down and do burpees or, you know, go out and hug a tree or whatever it is, be in nature. These things take three deep breaths. You know, that we need to do to, to be well so that we can lead well.

Russel Lolacher: Why, so I'm gonna put the business hat on. Why? Why do I need to be a more conscious, nonviolent leader? Like I am, i'm here to deliver things. I've gotta make a widget. I've gotta create a service. Why does this help me be a better leader?

Trevor Stevenson: Well, we gave, we gave two examples from our boss experiences. Right? And, and which one do you wanna work for? Which one are you going to leave? You know, which one are you gonna invite your, your buddies to come and work at? Which one are you going to recommend to potential clients?

Russel Lolacher: I, I understand that. Sorry to interrupt. I understand that, but I don't know if Dale's boss would know they are, were a conscious leader. Like I think they may have just been, this is, I'm just a nice person. I just, I understand that the people in my organization are valuable, and if I treat them well, it's like the whole Richard Branson, if you treat your employees like your customers, you'll have better, right?

But they don't necessarily connect the dots to being conscious leaders. They're just like, I've worked with or known some amazing leaders, but I wouldn't call them conscious leaders. I would just say that they were people leaders or servant leaders. So I'm just trying to get a better sense of why this is, or how your approach might vary and be of benefit for people to better understand.

Dale Allen: Right. And, and that's where I think the the nonviolent part is important. Like, when I think about the people that we were you know, the, the two that I was talking about, the bosses that I had is their awareness, like their, their choiceful intentional way of. Focusing on their employees, the, the checking in with us.

So there's one, you can be kind, but the their, their awareness to, to go like this and say like, how are you doing? You know? And and noticing the difference or joking with me at times when I needed it. I didn't eat meat and they would, one would always have me, you know, send out like the biggest prime rib at 24 ounce.

Like just, you know, to stay to get me, you know, like he's, but he is, you know, he's joking with me and all of that. It's just to me the difference. That's why I think you can be aware of your leadership, but I think if you can be aware whether your leadership is, is hurting people, I think is the biggest thing.

So this is what I think Russel and Trevor, I think leadership is easy when the sun's shining, when everything's great. It's really about when it's challenging. Like how do you show up when it's challenging? How do you show up for yourself and how do you show up for others in those moments? Intense moments.

How we use our power really matters. We naturally will go to overpower and go to control. It's just a, a natural way. We're in survival mode, right? When our flight, flight or freeze response is activated. It can be very difficult to come down from that and lead from a place where people are like, oh yeah, we've, yeah, we've gotta go.

We've gotta get these plates out. It is not an emergency, right? It's not, no one's gonna die. We were in a restaurant. But to be able to get out of emergency mode as though you know, someone's gonna die if they don't get their food. That's, that's how people act. We work with corporations, we work with nonprofits.

They're not always connected to someone's actual life, like in terms of someone could, could die if they don't get this service. But the way that people act. When something goes wrong is almost like that, you know, the fight, flight or freeze response act are activated. When Trevor was speaking about, you know, throwing a hammer, the hammers that we hear are the words that people will say the directives that people give.

Sometimes there is swearing really hurtful words and it really impacts people's people's ability to show up to perform, right? So, so to me being aware of how I'm thinking and how I'm speaking and how I'm acting and the impact that it has on people's health you know, the way that they show up is, is what we're really about.

You can be aware and still use your power and, and, and hurt people in times of tension. And we're like, can we flip the switch on that? Can we give you a practice so that when you are, you know, like about to, I don't know lose it, you know that you've got a way to come back so that you're clear and clean even when, even when it's really challenging.

Russel Lolacher: Speaking to Trevor's story. I mean, that was an example of someone who was a great guy until he wasn't because things, and I think COVID was one of the biggest litmus testes tests for a lot of leaders because suddenly it was hard. Suddenly they didn't just have to show up and say, go do a thing. They weren't leaders to begin with, but it really showed that they weren't leaders when they were put in situations they had no control over. So I wanna throw, I'm gonna throw this to you, Trevor is. I understand that as self-awareness, self-awareness is huge. Like I, one of my baselines for this show about being a good leader is self-awareness, situational awareness, communication. If you have those three nailed, you can be a decent leader, you can be a good leader.

But if you don't have any of those three, you're not helping anybody. So I wanna stick with the self-awareness piece. 'cause Dale's brought that up. As an individual, as someone who wants to be a more conscious leader. Are there practices, habits, things we could be doing ourselves to inform us to under, to become a more conscious leader?

Trevor Stevenson: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and the practice of self-awareness as you're saying, really, is it, it's the, it's number one on my list as well. When I think of my three steps and mine have, are, are really like so similar self-awareness. I put courage and communication in the same one because, you know, we can have all the awareness of the communication, what needs to be said.

But if I, if I can't take that one second of courage to talk to Dale about that thing that's bothering me about, you know, between us, then I'm gonna live with it. I'm gonna continue to create harm for myself. And so the, the, the shift there, that self-awareness piece we mentioned it briefly about the, the somatic.

Where is it showing up in my body? It, it's a bit of a deeper practice and so. Even thinking of Marshall Rosenberg's work and, and his four steps of observations, feelings, needs, requests. And so we try to identify what was the moment that, that I got triggered by something. But the problem with that is I'm already in the triggered state, so me thinking rationally about a clear, specific moment that I got triggered, I'm, I'm just saying, well, Russel always does this.

I can't believe he's like that. And you know what he did at this person and this person. And every day I come in and it's like this, and I'm like, and then we coach back to, okay, no, but, but just this one instant. What was it that you saw or felt or heard that that that was really triggering to you?

Well, I don't know. Like I just, every, the, the environment around here is just terrible. Okay, no. Come back, come back. So we really, so, so the, the piece that we really try to help people with is take any one moment. If you want to be a better leader, more conscious, more aware, think of one moment where you were triggered and, and so.

Oftentimes the, it's the emotion that is the, the har binger, like the canary in the coal mine kind of thing. Oh, I, oh, now like I'm, I'm feeling really n nervous or Dale said tense and or I get this sort of choking feeling or, or butterflies in my stomach. Oh, okay. So what Now we work backwards and re reverse engineer that and say, what was the thing that you heard or saw or thought that was the first moment you felt that?

And then we can start to, so that's just the self-awareness piece. And then we can go into, you know, the non harming and, and the action taking. But with respect to heightening our self-awareness, we first have to notice ourselves in situation where we are triggered. And, and it's, and it's amazing Russel, how quickly and we don't spend a lot of time, we don't, we're not psychologists, but we can, we can tie that back so quickly and, and, and to an upbringing situation.

We're like, okay, good. You know where that comes from and you know that it comes up for you. In a patterned response. And so just recognize that. And then we're gonna work on how to get out of that every time over and over again because you've got 40, 50 years of doing it one way. And so people also think that they're gonna listen to this podcast or they're gonna read that book, and it's oh, okay.

I should be better now. And one coaching session with us, and then the, then they start immediately getting upset because now they can see it. Right? We're holding it up for them and they see the, that pattern and, and it almost makes it worse because they're, oh God, I just, I just listen to Russel's podcast.

They're like, I can't believe I'm doing it again. Why? I'm such an idiot. Why I always do that. You know? And it, and we just, it compound effect makes it worse. So, so the other side of, of that becoming self-aware is noticing the impact that we created on ourselves with our own thinking to make it worse.

Russel Lolacher: Is that how you operationalize it? And that's what I'm thinking of is are you waiting for moments or are you doing this as a daily practice? So is it a matter really? Right. I mean, 'cause some people, if you wanna make this habitual because people will just go on autopilot. To your point, Trevor, people will rely on beliefs and behaviors that they've had forever.

That's their autopilot and their base operating system. And you're talking about disruption. So waiting for something to happen for me to go, Ooh, I need to analyze that. Was I right in that meeting? Or, man, I was a rock star in that performance review. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? Are we waiting for those moments or are we waiting, getting up every morning and going, I need to do these four things.

I like, I'm trying to understand whether it's a reactive or a proactive practice.

Trevor Stevenson: It's, it's a, it is a beautiful infinity loop, right? Because we don't have to wait too long to find reactive moments in our life. Right. That's the, that's the, that's the joy of the practice opportunity. Because it, it, it, it really, when we boil it down and, and what we're saying is the practice remains the same.

Russel, no matter if it was, I, I go to the fridge and there's this much milk left and I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit late for work and I already have to go and I was supposed to have my cereal, or that was the milk for my coffee or whatever, and there's like a, okay, okay, whatever, you know, versus now I'm in traffic versus now I'm gonna be late for that meeting versus I, I, I didn't bring the right documents to share.

You know, there's, there's all sorts of triggers in a day, and it can be a compound effect. So I love what you're saying because that, that awareness and recovery work is super important. But the other side of it is equally the, the waking up with the intention setting, the meditation, the body movement, the journaling practices.

So in, in my men's group, fundamental, we journal every day about what we are grateful for. We all know, right? The gratitude journal and the values and the benefits of that, but also, what am I proud of? So how, how, how was I in that meeting? Was I a rock star? And what did I feel good about? What was fun today?

So recognizing what I did today, that was fun. What I'm excited about tomorrow. So already doing a bit of intention setting for that. And then also what was challenging today? What was a moment that was challenging? What I find when I journal that and when the guys journal, what I see is they'll, they'll start to, they'll, they'll write out what was challenging and then they'll already start to undo it a little bit.

Oh, and, and then I did this to, to kind of make it better or, so here's what now I know I need to do differently next time or to repair this thing. So it's, it's kind of cool. So that's another just a practice of being non harming to self. And then, you know, the whole hurt people, hurt people thing. So if we can take care of ourselves, then we're doing a lot better in the world also.

Russel Lolacher: How do you navigate the blind spots and the biases? Because people, again, we're back to the, I see Dale laughing. So how do you navigate that? Because, I mean, it's great and you're curious, but if you're blind to it, you don't even know the right question to ask. You don't even know you're not aware of it.

Dale, you feel, I feel like you have something to say.

Dale Allen: I do, I do.

Russel Lolacher: Please.

Dale Allen: Yeah, I do. You know, what I, I find though, is when you ask someone what was triggering them and to actually name, name what they saw or heard without any criticism, without any blame of themselves or someone else, no shaming, no guilting, and they just have to, we, we say to folks, and so this is what a, a great thing to do is if you think about something that's been disruptive or disturbing you, and it's something that you're ruminating on if you ask yourself, when was the last time that you saw that?

What did you, what did you say? What, what was said to you? Or what did you see? And you have to name it in 10 words or less. And so that's all you have. So you can't use any words that imply shame, blame, guilt, no criticisms, no generalizations. Like they always do this, they never do this. And you just start, this is we call it like trigger coaching or trigger therapy.

The beauty of it is 10 words or less. You only have this to be able to say just the act of that starts to strip away all of the hurtful kind of padding the you know, you know, like the colorful ways that we talk about situations that actually embed the pain that we're experiencing or the, the, the judgment that we have already.

That's how we start. So when you were asking about like this is kind of like awareness part or the bias that is the first step in, in stripping all of your bias out because it's like you have to name it without criticism, without blame, without shame, without guilt. So there's, there's nothing left Russel except something like.

When Russel walked into the room and, and, or, you know, I saw and said, looks like you didn't get much sleep, Trevor. Yes. Right. And that's, that's actually what, what it becomes, that's the first, the first I guess the first door that you walk through is moving from a judgment to an observation.

A judgment is you'll, you'll say it really colorfully about your thoughts, your opinions of the person, the situation. But this says, let's take that and let's strip it of all of that and just say, what was the exact moment if you were to watch a video and share it with someone who doesn't know you, an 8-year-old who doesn't know you, and say, I want you to stop the video right when you see this, or right when you hear this in the audio, I want you to stop it right there. It, that's what we ask people to do. And so your bias actually, it's like we're stripping all of that and then we're going now when you. Witnessed that, you know, saw that or heard that? What feelings showed up in your body? Not what are you pointing not pointing out to other people. What showed up for you?

Oh I felt uncomfortable. Okay. What's it telling you? It's like there's, there's a message here that you're missing because you're on autopilot. So what's it telling you that's really, really valuable to you? Like it's a need for you is really important. Okay. Now what would you do then to meet that need next time?

Because throwing hammers probably wouldn't be the thing then, would it? If you realized that it was really, that you were frustrated because you needed more help, you'd probably go and so we'd say, what's the meaning? It's oh, it's just, I needed to ask for help in the moment. So you see that throwing the hammer wouldn't get you the help.

Oh, I know. But so we're actually working through this, this process of getting into your body to perceive things in different ways and getting out of the intellect and the, the natural pattern of, of going into a blame shame cycle. So that's, that's actually, it reveals itself so quickly and you can't run from it Russel, it's so cool because you cannot you can't run from it.

And what it does is that's how we get out of harm's way. 'cause we're stripping that right from the beginning. Right. So then you use your power for good, you know?

Russel Lolacher: I, what's coming up for me though is also from the conscious leadership, nonviolent not harm, is that leaders need to understand that nonviolent part is for themselves too, because they'll immediately think that it's nonviolent for their teams or nonviolent for the organization. But a lot of leaders, I know it's the imposter syndrome, it's the beating themselves up, not thinking they're worthy or they're good enough bringing a lot of childhood trauma into it where they can't step up or they're masking most of the time and that self-harm.

So that's what I'm hearing a lot is what you're, it's, I mean, it can be as extremist thrown a hammer, but that's nine times outta 10 is not the situation. It's as much about understanding ourselves.

Dale Allen: You got it. So even, even, you know, earlier when I was describing that, it's we look at how we think. So we first create up here in our thoughts, right? Then it comes out in our speech, and then it comes out in our behaviors then, which also shows up in how we relate. So when there's a challenge or when something's great, we look at what am I thinking right now?

And then what words am I saying as a result of that? And what actions, like what behaviors are showing up? And then it's and then how am I treating people? How am I treating myself? So I'm starting with myself first to see how am I treating, what am I myself, how am I thinking? And how does that show up?

How am I feeling? Then when I, when I think that, when I, so even something that seems so trivial, but when we say, I'm so stupid, and it goes let's just sit with that, like that's harmful. And people are like, no, no, no, it's not a big deal. Right? But then watch now when Dale does something and you'll go, Ugh, she's so stupid.

Then how would you treat her then? How are you treating yourself then? So it's really looking at how we're thinking, how it relates to our speech, our actions, and how we relate. Right.

Russel Lolacher: So...

Dale Allen: Really interesting..

Russel Lolacher: Yeah. No, I, I love this conversation. Trevor, Dale, you've, you're, you're coaching, you're working with these individuals. They are becoming more conscious leaders, but then they gotta go to work. Then they have to work with other humans that are diverse, that have different worldviews. How do you bring conscious leadership and what does it look like in action when it comes to a team that you have to interact with?

Dale Allen: Mm-hmm. It's, yeah, it's the same though. You know, what you were asking, like if, if this is a practice, if it, or it's just when things blow up. But what Trevor was mentioning is that triggers happen all the time and the brain doesn't know the difference. The brain doesn't know that you're at work. The rain doesn't know that you know, you're pissed off because you thought it was supposed to be sunny and it's actually raining.

The brain doesn't know that. It just goes threat reward. What are we doing here? Tell me what we should, are we running away? Are we, you know, am I fainting? Tell me what to do. Are we going towards it? Is it good? So, with a team, it's no different. We're, we're looking at now, now there are a group of people who are, are triggered in a way that actually is taking them out of their capacity.

Like to cope, for example. Right? So it's, it's a similar pro. It's, I mean it really is the same process. It's just times 10. So it's it's the same things that people do anyway. We do a pulse check. Like how, how are we feeling? What's going on right now and what's challenging us right now?

Trevor Stevenson: And I think it is, it's really normalizing this conversation, Russel.

It's, it's unmasking. Right. It's having people in a room to start sharing what is really going on for them moment to moment when these triggers occur. And then, you know, whether, whether that's their own, you know, it, it's actually really quite amusing because, you know, work pays for this most time and leaders come in as, as you know, organizational leaders and then we start talking about their marriages and their kids and their parents or whatever, like those relationships that are closest to them and it doesn't matter.

This is what we always explain to them. 'cause I feel bad, oh, you know, I'm coming in here, I'm talking about, you know, my, my teenager and what's going on. And we're always saying it doesn't matter because this is just practice. And the practice remains the same. The pattern spotting remains the same and the undoing remains the same.

And so you in relationship, whether it's with your senior management team or at that family reunion is going to be the same because you are that the work is, as you had stated a moment ago with self first. How, how was I not aware previously that I was falling into that parent child pattern? Right?

Whether I'm the parent or I'm the child in the scenario, so how am I feeling moments before I say that thing or do that, take that action that is, that is unconscious and habitual for me. Do I, do I get that tightness do, is there something to bring me an awareness that I want to create a shift?

Russel Lolacher: And that, and I completely agree with you, but when you're introducing these concepts to a team, this team might going, well, that sounds woo woo. That sounds great. I've got something to do. I'm glad you took, I'm glad you got coaching. That's great for you. I don't have the money or the time to do your coaching. So i'm curious about what is the foundational work the leader might need to do to even introduce these kind of concepts specifically around conscious leadership? Because you'll get a gen, you'll get a Boomer, and you'll get a Gen Z, gen Z, who have very different concepts or experiences or perceptions of concepts like this.

So what's the groundwork we need to be doing with a conscious leader lens to introduce these concepts?

Dale Allen: Yeah. There, there, I guess there is a mindfulness piece, but I actually think that the part about when people are like what we walk people through a journey to really look at the pattern. So people come because they actually see a pattern. They don't name it as that. But so for example, we're working with a team right now, and they're, they're.

Across the country. So they're across Canada. And there is a lot of tension. There's, as we know, most organizations are going through deficit reduction that's happening everywhere. People are watching their pennies and it's creating a lot of fear and a, a lot of isolation. So people are like, you know, mind, mind silo work really common, right?

We've seen that it doesn't matter if it's death is a reduction, it can be anything that can trigger that COVID, of course did. But that, that happens on a regular basis in a year, no matter what's going on in the world. But for people, sometimes that feels really different. Like they'll say, yeah, but right now it feels really different.

Right. But that pattern's very common. You know, this do more with less. We, we can't spend any more money. Very common pattern. We've seen it all over. Right. What we're doing, it's the same at the, as the, at the individual level. Then the groundwork then is. We work with a leader to help them see what the pattern is.

They're naming it already. That's why they're coming, but they're like, I don't know what to do. Right? It's just hands up. I've done everything. You know, I've given them training. I've offered them coaching. I spend time with them. I asked them to not stay late. And what they're, what they're actually naming is the root stuff.

That is why that even though you're giving them all the things, it's like when you give your children all the money, they're still not happy. It might seem like that. So what we're really looking at is walking them through to see the patterns. So now as a team, you're starting to see these behaviors show up, aren't you?

Yeah. You know, and so it's like they're, we're helping them spot the patterns, name the pattern, and then look at what, what, actually, excuse me, what kind of leadership is needed right now to help people through that pattern? And that's what we coach to because people are like, but I don't know how to be, I mean, I've given them all the things.

I've given them the money, the, you know, like it is magician hat, the dub, and then I'm like, you know, the I don't know, the ribbons and, and it's just not working. They'll say, and it's because it's not the, it's not things that people are looking for, even though they don't know it, like their team doesn't even know it.

They're actually, the things that they're looking for is can you, am I being heard? Do you understand that it's difficult? I know we can't have more money. I know I can't have more people, but it's tough. And, and so usually when Trevor was saying about the courage to have the conversation, that really is the thing.

People don't know what to say and how to be in a way that offers that felt sense of I can just relax here. You know, you got me right. That's kind of like what the shots would do at the time when I was talking about where I worked. Right. It's like just that kind of what is the conversation that actually has people go, I, I got you.

And I'm also going through this at the same time. So pattern spotting and helping leaders see what is happening. They're naming it already, but helping them name it. And then we help them actually come up with a strategy that is more about the emotional safety that is needed because the work is getting done anyway.

Like it actually isn't not getting done. It already is. They've got that. It's actually the emotional impact that is, that people are experiencing and, and their sense of needing the sense of emotional safety at this time, which is what they're like, I don't know what to do about that. And that's, that's what we're offering.

We co-designed that with them as to what it would look like. And as a leader who doesn't usually have these kinds of conversations we work with them to go what feels good for you? You know, what would you want? What would you want your boss to do?

Russel Lolacher: Two things outta that, that I love that you brought up. One is that, what kind of style do we need now? Truthfully, I hate when people go, what is your leadership style? I'm like, if you have one, we have a problem because you should have many styles based on the situation in which you go in. I also love that you highlighted the fact that one of my biggest pet peeves is check box leadership.

What do you mean? I gave, I let them go home early. I like, I gave them the things like check, check, check. I did all the things a good leader does as opposed to just being a good leader. I've, you know, I've made the actions rather than be the person, so. For me to introduce conscious leadership, I'm hearing things like vulnerability and trust and sort of laying the this, this relationship with your team down.

Because they may not know you as this evolved human. They may know you as the person that helped them get things done, not as a person that's trying to be more conscious, more harm, harm reduction. So I'm just trying to bridge that gap between, you know, so I appreciate that you did that.

Trevor Stevenson: Yeah. Well, I think the, the, the self-awareness that we spoke about and the self-compassion is huge, right? So with respect to, to teams, and this is, you know, coming on 21 years of doing this work and very often. From day one, people that were interested were interested in the change for their team.

Yeah. Or there's some issues, you know, can you come in, you work with this person or this person, or do a team thing. So one of those checkbox exercises is also, let's do the team motivation thing. We need a team building event. And we very quickly learned that, oh no, they don't need this yet. You, you can be the change.

You know? And that person needed something. And then when that mirror was held up, there were people that were, oh geez, yeah, you're right. Or there were people like, no, definitely not. Okay, don't worry about it. Then I'll hire someone else and they'll come in and they'll do that team event. And so we, we very quickly grew to the point of, okay, you know what?

I like that idea. And absolutely there's work that can be done there, but you don't even know yet the impact that you can have through your own transf. And so we would work with leaders, and we still do, even in what Dale was describing, when we do team events now they, we will work with a, a design team to really dig into what's going on and what is going on for them as the leader or leaders of that organization, and what are the shifts that they can and should start making for themselves that can have an impact before we even do anything.

You know, because they're the ones that live there. Like you, you said something earlier about, you know, we come to a coaching session or an event or something, but then I go back into my environment. Exactly. Right. Right. So how do you change, even if the environment hasn't, how do you in change, how do you continue to evolve so that you evolve the environment?

Russel Lolacher: Pulling back a bit into the idea of a culture of an organization. 'cause we're talking a lot about the individual, we're talking a lot about subcultures, IE the leader and their own teams. But from, I'm, I'm, I'm giving you a magic wand here. So how can organizations, foster environments where conscious leadership is not just an individual decision, it's part of the culture.

Dale Allen: Yeah. There, there are two there's a, an actual practical way, like when one of the ways that we actually design is that we, we meet with a cluster, like an executive team, but not even everyone, just anyone who who cares about culture change if you don't have a, a group of people who are continuously working on that.

Then it falls anyway. So then it becomes an event, you know, it's oh, we did this thing. So we, we do call it like we call it a design team, meaning that there, it's the group of of leaders and they could be from all over your organization, kind of grassroots, right? Yeah, but it's what it is is that they, they're holding that we, we also call it an integrity council, like the integrity of the work that they're really wanting to, to do.

If you really want your organization to be healthy, you look at, like us, we, I want, I wanna be healthy Russel, but I I ate Amisu last night and Hello dollies, and you know, I'm gonna be real, right? So just saying that even in, in a team, if that's the aspiration, we also know that we're gonna take in toxins.

We're, we're gonna say things that aren't great, we're gonna be asked to do things that are beyond our capacity. We're gonna stay later. All these things that are, that kind of, you know, could contribute to toxins or viruses in our, in our living system, in, in our workplace. So what. What I would like to say just for maybe ease of, of understanding is it isn't about us always being healthy, conscious, nonviolent leadership is that, is there someone who has who cares enough to have a pulse on how are we doing?

What are the things that you might be digesting that like this reorg that is causing a problem? And, and do we have the courage to actually look at that? And so, it's more about being reflective and being, when you named vulnerable, I was like, yes, it's a word that's used often, but what does that really mean, Russel?

And to me it's tell, tell me like, as a, as an employee, tell me what you're seeing and what you're feeling and what you're hearing. See, feel here just go, you know, I like, I'm seeing that you know, we're sharing this reorg and some of your team is like gungho about and the rest of. Them are like, eh, you know, and, you know, this is what I'm feeling.

Like I'm also nervous about it. I know I'm leading the organization. I'm nervous about it. And, and this is what I'm hearing, I'm hearing from folks, is that they, they want support. They want us to meet regularly, whatever it is. I think that, that see here feel or see feel here, I think is important as a, as a, an actual demonstrative way to to show up and show what vulnerability means.

It's I'm gonna tell you what I'm seeing and hearing and what I'm feeling and, and we're also gonna create a space. So we call it the Integrity Council, a space for us to go, this is our culture. We look at what we're seeing, what we're hearing, what we're feeling, and then we, as a result of that, we're taking action on that stuff.

I, I would love to share I want people to understand that because it's, events are easy. You can, you can throw team building, you can hire the Trevors and Dales of the world and, and still not do the work. And, and so the action is could you in front of your team also just show what you're experiencing too?

And and coach them into what are we doing as a result of that? Who do we wanna be as a result of that? How do we move together as a result of that?

Trevor Stevenson: I think build, yes. Building those systems into the organization that when we meet, we do things like Dale was just describing, right? When we meet one-on-one, we have a check-in of literally, how are you feeling? And that's, that's the weird stuff, right? We don't, you know, there's always been, oh, you know, emotions have no place in the workplace.

And what you're describing about vulnerability, we, we also just call honesty and to, to be honest with what's going on for us. Whether, again, whether it's in our parenting or in our marriage or our. Multi-thousand person organization to be able to come into our meetings, to have structures within our meetings, one-on-one or group or all staff, whatever, where people have that the, the, the structure to submit what's going on for them without fear of any sort of reprisal.

And that's, Dale had mentioned earlier that safety building a culture of safety. And that is where the, the humanness comes out and the human centered leadership and that kind of concept. It's, it's really because, because the, the, the systems, the societal norms are such that yeah, we are here to pump out widgets.

It's, if we want to create a different system, then, you know, we love bringing that grassroots, those who are already self ID of, yes, I want to do it differently. And that might may be the entry level person and the CEO in the same room, which is beautiful, at the same table. And, and then it can foster out from that where they build in structures like this in their meetings, in the way that they connect and relate and open up to moments of fragility around their own experience.

Dale Allen: But Trevor and Russel, I think one of the things people, like we hear it often is people don't wanna ask how people are feeling. Because they're afraid of holding that. What am I supposed to do with it? It's a hot potato. It's oh yeah, I don't know what to do with that. And I guess that's where this work comes in.

It's that when you know that that's the root, right? So when people come and say, I've done all the things, you know, I've given them the time off. I've gotten them a gym membership, they've seen a counselor and still, right? So they, it's like they already know, they already naming that they know, but I know that they're afraid because I'm not a counselor and we're not asking people to be that.

We're just inviting them to be able to see a pattern and help people through a pattern to back to health. It's like just, it's like restoring back to health. That's what I was saying. You know, I might eat this, not great food, but I know what to do the next day, right. I'm gonna eat a salad and I'm gonna drink water.

It's so what's your way at work? What do you offer that allows people to, you know, restore and, and get back to a place of health? Even in a time when it's super toxic or it's super difficult, you know? But if I just name toxins as like anything that creates a difficulty and takes away from the health.

Of how a team moves, you know, how we get things done. And that's where I think people are afraid, where they're just like, I don't know what to do. I don't wanna ask them what they're feeling and I don't want them to tell me they're gonna dump on me. And, and that's fair, right? It's so fair. And, but this way isn't that, it's that if we say, you know, it's like the backdrop, like we've got here, this inhale exhale.

If we say we are about a healthy environment, that means we've gotta look for moments when we're not healthy. And then we gotta look at what are we gonna do in that time to get back to this? That's, that's all we're actually doing, right? It's what would health look like if health walked in the more the door right now in this meeting?

What would it do? You know, like those, those kinds of questions. And, and so we we're kind of building this capacity as conscious nonviolent leaders. We're saying, Hmm, there's some harm right now. What is being called for? Who do I need to be right now to restore it back to health? And I'm, am I willing to do that?

Who do you need to be? Who do we need to be as a team then to restore it back to. And then our focus becomes this, like it's, I find it so juicy 'cause it's like the work's getting done anyway, but it's the, how we're doing the work that shifts, you know, it's like our operating system. It's if you're Android or your, your iOS is outdated, you're gonna do the updates.

So we're all about the updates then, you know, in that moment.

Russel Lolacher: So fair and, and thank you for calling me out about defining vulnerability as the guy that loves defining things. I appreciate that immensely.

Like what do you mean by vulnerability? That's a good one. I'm even trying in my own conversations now, is reframing vulnerability to relevancy. Because be being too vulnerable can be really off-putting for people. But if you become relatable and relevant, that seems to be a little bit more connecting of dots for people than just, you know, being overly vulnerable and overly sharing.

Because people don't know where that line is a lot of the time. But if they consider the audience, that's where I think relatability and becomes a little bit more useful. Anyway, that's my little preachy piece on vulnerability. But I'm curious about from a conscious leadership standpoint, looking at, at an organization, trying to lead consciously.

Is there ways of measuring this? Is there like going, we are more conscious now. Is it understanding from a, a, is it a scale? I'm trying to get a little too metric key possibly on this, but also for a lot of people that are not, that are neurodivergent and need a little bit more structure than just conscious leadership and nonviolent.

They want to, they wanna put it in a spreadsheet. There's a lot of people that are listening to that who wanna do that. So can it be measured? How can it be recognized at the organizational level?

Dale Allen: Yeah. I think it's, so, it's interesting how you say that because right now I'm working with a, a, a group where of executives and founders and and we're going to design what that is. So what, that's why everything is so about, you know, what are you thinking? What are you thinking you want for the organization?

And then what would you be able to see? Because when people come with a problem, they usually are like, you know, they're not doing this, they're not doing this, they're not, you know, so for example you know, people aren't talking to each other. They're not getting up and just walking over and, and inviting that team to a conversation.

They name the things that they wanna be able to see. So we, that's what we use and we actually, instead of going out there and, and trying to find these massive, I don't know, or not massive ways of measuring you know, using these different instruments, we actually look at, what did you say you were looking for?

And if we were to now look at the patterns and to see how that pattern's creating the very thing, the very problem you're talking about, let's shift the pattern into what would you see? And we get them to create their the, the measure why that became so important. Because just recently this person asked me for is there a tool that you use?

But they keep using tools, but it's not actually directly it couldn't say you know, because one thing was about neurodivergence. It's like we've got some folks who actually feel like they're not being heard and do you have a tool for that? And then there's also this person who thinks this, how could you, you know, how could you have one tool?

So we're asking them what would you notice, what would be different? And that they would report on that. It's so, so powerful because the way that you pay attention, I mean, that's conscious leadership too, is like how am I being and whilst I'm doing it, so what's the impact? When you have people pay attention to that and now they're, they're starting to be conscious of oh, that, you know, when, you know, each time we have a, a team meeting and this person doesn't speak because you know, they've just kind of lost attention and because we know about, you know, their neurodivergence or this person takes over and then this, like they already know it, the pattern Russel.

So what we do is we just bring up the pattern so they can see it more clearly. And then we look at now with this approach are you, can you start to witness the difference? If you were to do this, can you witness the difference? And we get them to record that and actually like truly journal it.

And then they get to see, oh, things are starting to shift. Because usually what, you won't be able to witness it 'cause you're looking for this grand thing. You know, Dale's always happy now when she's at work. When we tell her what's what she's been doing, you know, she's not gonna be happy. But we look at now, oh, what we really wanna measure is.

My courage to have the conversation, and I'm having the conversation in the way that Dale isn't as reactive anymore, and oh, I'm finding that she's actually sitting, she's staying when we're having the conversation. Oh, that's huge. Those are the kinds of things that we hear and that a, a larger instrument like a, a, a measuring tool couldn't capture because their mind is already looking for that specific difference.

And so we're, we're asking them what is the specific difference? And that let's go to work then for that, you know.

Russel Lolacher: So I like wrapping it up with a little sort of quick takeaway from anybody listening to this, especially if they're like, yeah, I get it. I wanna be a more conscious leader. Totally understand this is, this is where I wanna go forward on what do they do tomorrow? What is that sort of like first little baby step that gets their, even opens their mind to being open to these concepts or this, this ability to be more conscious, nonviolent.

What would you recommend they do tomorrow?

Trevor Stevenson: So I, I, I end up hiking or biking or in the garden talking to people all the time. And, and there's some serious I have...

People are, are hurting. They really are russel. There's... i'm part of an organization, dare to be vulnerable. There's suicidal ideation. There's there's a lot of people going through stuff that, where they're living here and they're in, in, in their head and they're quite lonely.

And they're going, you know, it's impacting. So you talk about the tangible impact or the improvement possibilities. There are the hard metrics of things like turnover and performance and divorce and dislocation from my children and things like that. The, the, the place because you, you're so right.

You need an easy entry point. And what I ask them to do is just start noticing their triggering moments. Just, just a, a little phone note. Or if you're a paper-based person, just put a little hashtag every time you, you feel a big emotion, something alive inside of you, of it doesn't have to be huge either.

And, and that's, that's step one is just noticing emotional triggers in a day. And, and then if they're ready for advanced, then it's like naming what, what situation, as Dale and I were talking, what was the observation, like the moment of what it was that was triggering. And then, and then what we'd start to do is look at the patterns of that and, and that's where I was saying we can tie it to your childhood.

You can tie it to your ways of thinking. Because we're creating it with our thinking. Right? The thing is happening out there in the world. The stimulus is happening out there. It's our relationship to it that causes the pain and the harm, right? And then, like Dale was saying about the speaking and acting, and then we, we share that pain with others.

So, so just noticing is, is step one. And, and our hope is that that inspires then some action towards, oh, okay. I actually realize that every time that I experience this, there's that shot of cortisol and adrenaline going into my bloodstream. And that chronic stress creates long, long-term harm. And so that, that is, is truly our desire, is that people will notice the harm that they're doing to themselves.

And it just starts with noticing this, the, the triggers for me, that's my prescription.

Dale Allen: I think it's good. That's good. Trevor, I, I would also like to share that a trigger is just an alarm. So you can be triggered into positivity as well, right? So, so it's but it, it still is really helpful to see what, what is triggering me to move right now to do something.

Is it from frustration, anger, hurt, or is it from heart? So we say am I looking through a lens of hurt or hurt in the moment? And so if you are focusing on triggers that are, you know, create negative feelings it's just kind of what we're talking about. So just for the sake of this, I, I totally agree with Trevor, is just to, to ask yourself in that moment what is it in 10 words or less that are, that's triggering me without using words that imply shame, blame, guilt, or criticism for no one.

So what was it? And then figure out where it, you feel that, like where in your body it's showing up. And, and I would invite you in that moment to breathe through it and ask yourself, what's it telling you? What now that would be the most helpful for you? And for someone else. That's it. Put your hand on that place on your body and take two or three deep breaths and just be present.

Yeah. What would be most helpful for you and for someone else. And then just see what happens, you know?

Russel Lolacher: That is Dale Allen and Trevor Stevenson. They're executive coaches, speakers, and they are the co-founders of Conscious Lead Life and they're a married couple. They just wanted me to make sure I knew I hadn't shared that with as much as possible. Thank you so much for being here, Dale and Trevor.

Trevor Stevenson: Thank you. Oh, thank you, Russel. That's awesome. I love what you're doing. I love that it's being shared in the world. Really appreciate you. Oh my gosh, you're brilliant. You are just brilliant. Thank you.