Tying Motivation to Purpose at Work

Motivation is often treated as something leaders can manufacture from the outside — incentives, goals, performance systems. But without purpose, motivation rarely lasts.

In this episode, Ryan Rigterink breaks down why purpose is personal, contextual, and constantly evolving — and why leaders get motivation wrong when they assume it’s one-size-fits-all. We explore how identity, experience, and intention shape engagement, how trust underpins any meaningful motivation strategy, and why shared purpose isn’t about conformity, but alignment.

This conversation challenges inherited leadership assumptions and reframes work as a place for becoming — not just performing.

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Transcript

Russel Lolacher: And on the show today, we have Ryan Rigterink, and here is why he is awesome. He's an author, speaker, and leadership consultant. He's the founder of Leaders Ops, a consultancy, helping organizations in building productive, purpose-driven work environments and of Workgaze, a platform that leverages behavioral insights to enhance talent acquisition.

Retention strategies. Mentioned he's an author, right? Well, he is got a book and the book's called Redesign Life -Finding Purpose and Balance Amidst Chaos and Uncertainty. Oh, we feel a lot of that these days. And he is here to talk about purpose and motivation. Hello Ryan.

Ryan Rigterink: Hello, Russel, how are you?

Russel Lolacher: I'm delightful, sir. How are you doing today?

Ryan Rigterink: I'm very well. Thank you.

Russel Lolacher: Good, uh, motivation, purpose. So many ways to approach that and we will, but before we do, I have to ask you the question, sir, that I ask all of my guests, which is of course. What is your best or worst employee experience?

Ryan Rigterink: Oh, I, I, I'll give a, a quick, a quick one of each. Uh, one of my best was working, uh, early in my career for a manager who, uh, just, uh, I was green in a lot of ways. And, uh, he kind of took me under his wing and, uh, just coached what, what the gaps were. Right. He did, he wasn't, uh, about judgment, uh, of even like through a typical KPI lens.

It was just he, he saw the, the raw. Uh, the raw motivation and the, and the goodwill and just guided and coached. And it was, uh, you know, I, I didn't actually know everything that was happening at the time, but looking back, I have, uh, even greater appreciation for, uh, kind of how he showed up in that and at that moment in my career.

So, um, that was one. Another one, I guess I'd say more on the negative would be, uh, kind of the opposite of that, uh, later in my career where. I was called into a meeting and a bunch of assumptions were made about, uh, why I was doing some of the things that I was doing. Instead of just having a conversation.

Uh, they decided to make some huge leaps of assumptions and even pulling in, uh, some of their more legal, compliance oriented folks. And, uh. It all unraveled through a conversation. And so that was, uh, that was not a pleasant experience. Uh, but uh, you know, at the end it wasn't pleasant for them either because they kinda felt like they had a little egg on their face for all the assumptions they made.

Russel Lolacher: So coaching, coaching through gaps is good, making assumptions bad, what have you, and now I'm totally cave manning this, but what would you say are probably the biggest takeaways you've then carried with you throughout your career? Year from each of those instances.

Ryan Rigterink: That it's, uh, a good, healthy, uh, starting point and foundation to, to, uh. Infer goodwill as a starting point, um, and then become, if there is any questions whatsoever, uh, just lean into being curious and ask a lot of questions instead of ma making leaps, uh, that, uh, might be very much in the wrong direction.

Uh, understanding full well with a, a healthy measure of humility that I don't have the full picture. And, uh, other people are very different and have different paradigms and different thought processes and different starting and ending points. So to assume all of that is, uh. A string of ifs and assumptions.

Russel Lolacher: And I really appreciate that you highlighted humility in that because we are in the leadership conversations we always have, curiosity always comes up. But I'm like, there is bad curiosity too when it comes with that assumption. When it comes with that. Uh. Um, I know better tone. Uh, when you're throwing hierarchy in people's faces, when you're, and I've, I've seen hierarchy where it's like, so nitpicky, right?

About curiosity, where it gets into the, like, you don't, you're asking so many questions. Do you even trust me to do the job? So. I like the idea of adding humility in it, going, no, I, I want to be better. I wanna learn, regardless of where I sit in an org chart, is that I wanna do that. So it's just, it's funny that we sometimes throw things out, like curiosity and trust when there is dark sides of those things as well.

And we don't always acknowledge that. So I love the idea of bringing in humility, going, no, no, no. There's a foundation. You have to come from this from a good place.

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah. Yeah. And intent matters 'cause it shows up in the details.

Russel Lolacher: And people aren't stupid. They hear, they listen. It impacts them, and people carry this for years and years and years going forward in their careers. Motivation, purpose. Uh, it's come up a lot, uh, in, in this, uh, in these conversations I've had over the last couple of years. And it's always a little interesting because people take it from different angles and what triggers those motivations and those purpose-driven, uh, conversations.

So I need to start off the conversation with, of course, Ryan, what are you even talking about? So we, you're talking about redesigning life, you're talking about triggering motivation through purpose. How do you personally define purpose? In the context of work and motivation for that matter.

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah, so it's a great question. Purpose is one of those words that, uh, it's multifaceted and therefore it has many, even if you go into the, uh, uh, the meaning of the word, it has different, uh, different angles. It's both from a, a action noun, you know, different, uh. Different historical meanings that, uh, are referenced in a bunch of different ways.

Uh, verb noun, uh, you know, you look at the Hebrew, the Greek, the whatever, and the actual basis of the meaning is multifaceted. And so it's not, uh, not a surprise that, uh. It could be a confusing or somewhat nebulous term. How I like to approach it is, uh, really in three buckets. Um, and this is really around personal purpose.

So purpose can be applied towards an organization in a lot of different contexts, but for what I think is what most people are. Maybe in search of is personal purpose. Uh, there's a lot of, a lot of conversations and work and coaching and whatnot that's done around defining that for an organization. But personal purpose, uh, I, I kind of categorize in three things.

It's, it's who I am by design, who I am by experience, which is kind of twofold how I experience the world and how the world experiences me. And then third, who I am by intention. And so from like a future. Seeing the future in back casting, what's meaningful and the journey towards that. Um, so it's, it's got a, it's got multifaceted angles of, of, uh, who I am, of who I want to become and who I am in the process and how I'm experiencing that journey.

Russel Lolacher: How do you connect motivation to that? Because there is a difference and I just want to kind of. Sort of separate them a bit. I know they fuel each other, but I, I kind of wanna just separate church and state here a little bit.

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah, so, uh. So separation. I mean, not to dive into a, a, put the conversation in a ditch, but even the analogy, um, there's misconceptions around the analogy itself, right? So, uh, these are linked, um, I would say that motivation, I would put in that experience piece. Um, so in the bucket of, of how. What actually motivates me.

And there's some good academic research on even that being, you know, multiplicity of things in the context being one of those. But, uh, you know, from a, like an employer employee standpoint, uh, it's, you know, motivated by connection, motivated by physical rewards, motivated by growth and autonomy and development and motivation by impact, um, are, are definitely some key aspects of that.

And so motivation is, is fundamentally. Why I do things. It's, it's what turns, uh, energy into motion, which is, uh, you know, uh, emotion is a part of that. And, uh, certainly motivation goes beyond that for what's the desired end or, or, uh, next step in that process, which. Which is fueled in internally or can be fueled externally, right?

So in the leadership context here, we can absolutely motivate people from the outside in. And I think that's one of the paradigms in leadership that, that I'm trying to introduce is how do we actually, uh, fuel people from the inside out in more natural ways that creates engage. You know, sort of by default versus this externality of trying to manage things from the outside in when it comes to people.

So one of the things I like to say is motivate the organization from the outside in, in terms of be customer oriented, motivate people from the inside out. And we tend to traditionally, oftentimes do the opposite of that.

Russel Lolacher: And that's, I love the idea of intrinsic extre, extrinsic, I always stumble over that word, uh, from the internal and the external. But what are we getting wrong? Because there are biggest, there are huge misconceptions when it comes to what motivates employees. You're talking about from a personal standpoint, but there are those executives, there are those leaders that are trying to inspire, motivate.

It's why we put those visions in the missions on the wall there, Ryan. It's why we talk about values. 'cause we think they're motivating. We think they're gonna connect dots for people intrinsically for their personal purpose and motivation. We'll connect those dots. What are we getting wrong?

Ryan Rigterink: Well, we throw everybody into one big bucket, and then we, and we analyze based on, you know, our academic lens on this. Is classification. And so we tend to want to test this as one big category and it's very personalized. And so, uh, in leadership, it's one of the reasons, it's one of the sub tools within, within Workday that we're building is how do we gain insight on the individual for how they opt.

What is meaningful, what is motivating to them? Not in some, you know, one size fits all approach. And so we tend to, like, I love curiosity and I, uh, but we don't really have infrastructure, uh, that does this well. So that's, that's a part of why we're, we're building what we're building is so that we can move from.

Intuition to, you know, science and insights to help fuel that in a much more granular way. You know, it's, it's in a relational context. You know, think of your best manager who had just sort of innate intuition on how to connect to people and how to fuel them, and they, they, they picked up on a lot of the soft signals.

They ask, uh, questions, they had genuine curiosity and usually very good. You know, genuine goodwill towards, towards their people. And, and when you have that, you know, whoever is under that person's, uh, leadership will basically probably run through a brick wall for them because there's just something, uh, there's something motivating about working with somebody who seems to like, feel like they know you and can show up in their management style and leadership style in a way that, uh, in a way that.

It seems more genuine, right? Uh, and it's a lot of that is how we flex to people. And we, you know, we, we all do this in varying degrees. You know, if we, if we're talking to a little kid, what do we do? We change our language and we maybe, you know, stoop down and get on a knee and get on their level or whatever, right?

So we all do these things to varying degrees naturally, but how do we do it in a much more? Uh, comprehensive, granular, and informed way is, is, uh, really, it's a, it's in everybody's interest to do this.

Russel Lolacher: How do we handle change through this? You kind of mentioned that we change how we approach things and we're talking to different people, but purpose and motivation. Don't say stay the same through our lifespan, through our work careers, but as often is the case, we'll do some workshop in our early twenties or late thirties and go, well, I know my purpose and never talk about it again.

It's now on a board. It is now the in stone. When we know our values change, we know things happen. How do we navigate through that?

Ryan Rigterink: Well, I mean, they, they, they, yes, a hundred percent they change. Uh, and they should change, uh, or we're probably not making progress on that. Right? Um, so it's not purely about our values. There are certain values, even the word value, we get into defining words, right? Values can be, you know, our context dependent.

They, they aren't necessarily this, um. Uh, what's the word? Uh, in stone, uh, static. Uh, they're not necessarily inherently, inherently moral, right? We can all have different values around something and they all like. They all be just different. Not like right or wrong lens on, on values. Certainly there are values that, types of values that can have like a moral implication and a like a judgment of right and wrong.

But like even when we dive into the word values, you almost have to like define every term before we have the conversation about it or it's interpreted wrong, right? So, um, when I talk about values, I'm talking about. Values that are naturally inherent to like different personalities, to different, you know, uh, to different contexts.

And so back to your question about how do we manage this? Well, we, it probably is super helpful to understand what our values are in a particular context in a moment in time, and know that those are going to change because the context can change and all of a sudden the values shift and they should. So it's, it's about.

Gaining sort of like an an IQ, if you wanna call it that, of insight on the flex. So we can flex and we can understand and we can revisit. And so, you know. Workdays we're, we're, we're designing it with AI and flexibility and check-ins so that these things can be updated regularly because they, they do change and they should change.

And so, yeah, to your point, it's just not a check the box, one time exercise and uh, you know, my motivation can shift. And, and one thing can change, and all of a sudden my motivation has shifted, right? So it's not, uh, fluid so much that it's gonna probably change from minute to minute, but uh, as things change, so do we.

And that's a good thing.

Russel Lolacher: Think about having a kid. Think about how that completely changes your purpose and motivation when you wake up in the morning. I immediately, my communications brain immediately went like, PQ purpose quotient or MQ motivation quote, PQ sounds horrible though, so I'm trying, like, I'm trying to line it up with e IQ and eq.

Ryan Rigterink: Hmm.

Russel Lolacher: So. How do we know we're getting this right, either intrinsically or extrinsically? How do you know somebody is connected to their purpose and motivation? Because we talk about it like it's very important to do, but we don't always explain the why and the benefit of connecting to that purpose and motivation either individually or as an organization.

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah. So knowing's not enough, right? Knowing is a step baby, step one, right? Knowing it and partnering with that are very different steps. Uh, and so I, you know, the lens of the three, who I am by design, who I am, by experience, and who I wanna become by intention. You know, when those three things come into alignment, we experience.

Flow, we experience, uh, a natural engagement. We, we, things become more energized in terms of how we engage with it, how, how, how we experience it. And so it's, it's really, um, you know, we've, how do I say this? Um. Flow and friction are, are two metrics that are aligned to this, and we're building the capabilities to measure that. But it, it's, it's, it's not a simple category that you can just say, oh, if you do this one thing. And then everything is going to be, uh, great, right? It's, it's, we're dynamic people.

We live in dynamic changing times and context. And so how we know is how, how meaningful is, is the experience. How, how are you experiencing what you're going through and does it feel aligned to what's meaningful to you? And so there's a whole science around that, that, uh, you know, flow meaning, um, and, and some other things that, uh.

When all the pieces of the puzzle are present, um, you see, honestly, you see like joy. You see, uh, a sense, a greater sense of peace. You see. Um. Uh, a sense that you're doing the right thing, not just, uh, not just the good thing, but the right thing. And those are very different things. Uh, you can do, you could fill, we could fill a lifetime with doing good things, but it might not be the right good things that, uh, are meaningful and are impactful in the way that we want to, the impact that we wanna contribute.

So, uh, I'm, I'm very. Uh, on the scale of, of motivation, I'm, I'm very high on impact, so that tends to elevate in, in the things that I talk about. But, uh, but yeah, that's, I would say flow versus friction. Uh, here's the, here's the, uh, too long, uh, what is it? TLDR, the ratio of flow to friction that we experience and the amount of, of peace, joy, and sense that it's the right thing that we're participating in and journey that we're on.

Which translates into meaning.

Russel Lolacher: So let's get a little personal with you, Ryan, because in your book Redesigned Life, you talk about getting laid off. You talk about finding meaning again, yourself. I'm kind of curious from a personal standpoint, from a self-leadership standpoint, what internal work did you do that helped you reconnect with that purpose?

Because you've talked about these buckets, and of course that was a journey to get into those buckets, but you had to, you had to connect those dots for yourself to get the wheels moving again.

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah, a hundred percent. I, so those buckets came from, uh, probably about a decade journey of, uh, exploring pretty much un uh, if, if you can think of an academic, uh, domain. I, I probably dove into it in terms of just trying to understand this things from a number of different standpoints, because the experience I went through is, was.

Pretty doggone painful. And, uh, my motivation when the, uh, when the foundations seemed to like crumble or at least get exposed for what was broken, like, I want to get this right. And so, uh, my quest was to figure it out in a sense of how do I recalibrate myself, uh, and how do I recalibrate my life? And sort of the structures of life around that.

So, um, your question. Repeat your question for me because I, I, I want to get it right.

Russel Lolacher: No, absolutely. It's really understanding what did you do for yourself in, in, what self-work did you do? I, I think of self-leadership, I think of intention, but you've just gone through a devastating thing that's maybe even attacked your identity. 'cause I mean, most of us attach ourselves with identity, but we're talking about purpose and motivation.

You obviously got through that. So what was the work that you did? I don't want to throw things out just like, well, I journaled, well, I meditated Well, I, I took this course. What worked for you?

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah. So I did a, I did a deep dive in a lot of domains. I definitely did journal, and a lot of it was the, like the self-work of, of identity, uh, of uh, the. The framework around identity of how we even approach identity, um, needed, uh, needed some, uh, recalibration of the conclusions I was making. So there's, there's both the thing and the lens about the thing that, um, that thing.

Uh, the thing can be great or it can be, or the opposite of great, but our lens on it actually is our interpretation of our experience on it. And so in, in the work that I went through, a lot of it was. Exposing my own lens of how I was managing my own perceptions, judgments, conclusions, things like that. As well as actually digging into like, who is Ryan and, and what should my identity be based on versus not like, so the.

There are really a lot of places we can place our identity that, uh, can crumble in a moment and until those things happen, you know, what I discovered is I had, my identity was across a number of things that I wasn't even necessarily cognizant of. And when the context changed or my experience changed, all of a sudden I experienced the pain of where my identity was spread across.

And so that was really a, a lens of. Okay. How do, how do I recalibrate? How do I rebuild? And, uh, really mapping this out in a. You know, I'd like to say it was like a really efficient, linear thought out process. That would be, that would be fantastic. That's certainly, uh, that's certainly where I'm trying to help people walk through things in a much more, uh, efficient and straightforward manner.

But, uh. You know, it was a 10 year, you know, it felt like a wandering in the wilderness for a decade is, is was my experience to get to some of the conclusions, tools and, and breakthroughs that eventually happened. And so it was, it was a lot of discovery, a lot of re reexamination. I went through a number of different applications and processes that helped me really gain the data and insights on that.

And uh, and then it was really the internal work of. How do I actually change, like now I, now I'm aware of this, but how do I actually recalibrate and make the internal adjustments, you know? And, and some of that was, uh, some of that was self-judgment and self, uh, negative judgment on some of the things that, uh, that I went through that I began to internalize as identity, which never should have been.

And so it was, I'd say there was. As much learning, there was probably as much or more unlearning in that process.

Russel Lolacher: I, I, I love the topic of identity because it, it's, it's, it's so meaningful for people, even though we don't even realize it's such an issue for so many people. It's just we take it for granted. But from a motivation and purpose standpoint. How do we handle gap management? Because I'm hearing from you, it's, I had to figure out who I was, what was my identity, not only to myself, but to my work world, all that.

But there's also that gap management of who do I want to be? Who's the identity I'm working towards? How do we figure that in practice to motivate ourselves to go, this is the person I am. 'cause that gets real, some humble, that gets real, um, vulnerable. And then gap management to who I want to be. How is, what are the steps towards that when it comes to motivation and purpose?

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah, so assuming that, uh, future identity is, is clarified, um, because that's, that's. Probably not an assumption most people should make. Right. Um, I think that's a, that's a gap in and of itself, quite honestly, that's probably the largest gap the management towards that is, is how do we remind ourself and partner with that in time and, and remind ourself of who that is and how I'm moving towards that.

So I, I mean, it's, I think the management of it is. Is actually less of a leap than, I'm not saying it's not, but I just think it's a simpler, a simpler structure or approach. It's, it's a matter of, of verbalizing, visualizing and, and sequencing in terms of creating a rhythm of, of. Partnering with who I'm becoming, right?

And so it's a lot of that comes into, uh, the habits we set up, how much we revisit these things. Um, am I declaring who I'm becoming? Um, I mean, there's, there's power in that. And, and do I have habits set up, or at least, uh, some sort of a trigger point where I realize when I'm not moving towards that, that, that I, I can check in with myself and the process.

So, you know, some of those things are. I think are much less sophisticated than actually defining the future identity to begin with.

Russel Lolacher: I appreciate you making it a little bit more operational because we talk about motivation and purpose, but we put it on a. Banner, this is my purpose, to change the world, or, which is inspiring, don't get me wrong. But at the same time, it's not a day-to-day practice. It is what do we need to be doing to make these incremental, to get you to that point as opposed to this overarching, holy crap, I'm gonna, you know, thing that we want to do, which works for some people, but it's not an operational, and that's where, that's where the rubber hits the road, man, in my metaphors today, where you really are trying to move the needle forward. So that, that makes me ask questions of like, and this comes back to the self-awareness piece. What should we be looking for in ourselves to understand that we're maybe operating without purpose, that maybe we don't have that aligned in the way that it should, because all this work is super important, but we don't always get that jarring moment of being laid off.

You know, that's, that's a in your face. You need to figure some things out. We, a lot of people don't necessarily get that, but they still need to do this work. So how do we know we're misaligned?

Ryan Rigterink: So I, again, a lot of this goes back to our experience. So there's data in our experience. Um, there's data of pain, frustration, you know, uh, uneasiness. All of these things, um, can be related to. Real things that we're dealing with, but they can also be, uh, a source. And, and certainly there's a lot of people who talk about how these can be tied back to things that have happened in our past that are, um, maybe not processed or healed or, or overcome in the manner that they do.

But there's a third, there's a third area that, uh, you're highlighting here, and that is. Some of that ache could be because it's, it's data about the impact and the change of, of we're who we're supposed to become and the impact that we're supposed to be a part of and help facilitate as, as someone who brings solutions and impact to the world.

And so that angle on that data of our experience, um, is often not viewed through that lens of. Maybe I'm supposed to be activated towards something. And so you see this in organizations or where people complain about A, B, and C and, uh, well have you considered, maybe that's something that you're supposed to be, uh, you know, a part of the solution on that.

Um, and so it's, it can be very practical that way where, uh, what we experience as a problem is an indicator, sometimes, not always, but sometimes of who we're supposed to become and how we're supposed to show up in that space.

Russel Lolacher: How do we introduce this to others? We're doing the work, Ryan, we're, we've got that motivation, we're connecting those dots. We see the identity we wanna become, we're operationalizing it, and then we go to work and then we're surrounded by 7, 8 30 people that are, we're responsible for, they may or may not be direct reports.

How do we introduce this? I remember talking to you when we were planning this episode that we were talking about purpose management, and I'm wondering if that's what we introduce when we try to bring others into this sphere.

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah, so purpose management is, is really about facilitating, uh, facilitating ourselves first off, right? I think, um. We, we can, we can jump into the aspirational mindset that you were just talking about, which was how do we change everyone else in the world? I think it all starts with h how are we doing this, right?

Because, uh, leading by example is one of the most powerful starting points. Um, and so beyond that. We can, we can help people go through the same process. We can, we can, uh, you know, help them gain data about themself and the who they want to become and partner in the same way. So I would say, uh. Before teach, learn, uh, and uh, and then we have more experience to relay and teach.

But, uh, you know, from a, from an operational lens, this is why we're building workday. It's, it's part of the missing infrastructure on, on talent and purpose and uh, and becoming. And that's actually the reason, one of the reasons I'm very excited about. It's 'cause it dignifies people with greater value, but it also uses work onto.

Something greater than just the task. It's, it actually leverages work to help people versus just people, uh, performing work.

Russel Lolacher: Another topic that came up in our, in our. Pre-conversation was around a thing called a shared purpose model.

Ryan Rigterink: Mm-hmm.

Russel Lolacher: And I is that, that feels, that feels to me is this, we are a group, we are a shared in our purpose. Even though we are individuals with our own, we're bringing our own quote unquote baggage from home.

And what motivates us could be different together, we have this one purpose. How does that work in an organization when people are as to that point? Pulling and pushing and going, well, my family matters to me at home. It doesn't really, you know, it doesn't include in your purpose model. I don't feel like I can be a piece of that.

So it's diversity comes up for me a lot when we talk about these shared things and that conflict. Maybe I'm back to friction and flow, I don't know, but is shared purpose flow, shared purpose modeling helpful?

Ryan Rigterink: Um, it is, and it's, it's granular, right? So we talk about a lot of times, so the prevailing, lemme set the context here if I can real quick. The prevailing paradigm in, in leading people in the, in the work is around how do we, how do we get people to serve the company's purpose? How do we get them to show up to serve the mission of the organization, the vision of the organization, all of that.

And so the prevailing, uh, paradigm on that is we pay people to serve the company vision and. That's really one sided and incomplete, and oh, by the way, doesn't provide near the surface area of traction that we can have. When we partner with people and recognize that they have their own vision, they have their own mission, and, and oh by the way, there's a lot more surface area, uh, that we can, uh, connect with people on.

Yeah. If we understand that and we look for the points of synergy and alignment between those, and so that's how I define shared purpose. It's not necessarily having the same vision. It's not, it's, it's like our eyes. How do we bring two data points of vision together like our brain does, uh, and actually creates a powerful picture of something that, uh, is, is.

Is much more valuable than, than either one on its own. And so it just, in the same way that our neurology works together to build cohesion and actually at that point perceives. Color and motion. It's, it's the same way when people come together with an organization, we can look for, okay, you've got your own vision and your own, you know, set of values and your own.

We, we don't necessarily have, have to get a copy paste, which is some of the, you know, drink the Kool-Aid kind of pressures that exist, right? You have to somehow form and fit this mold for us to work together, and I mean. Just think about if you did that with your kids, like, you know, you, you know, you have to have my personality, you have to have my exact values, you have to serve my vision.

Like would we ever like a healthy parent ever like even begin to think that way? No, not at all. And so a lot of this I think goes back to how we, how we probably naturally run families, uh, which is we don't expect. All of our kids, even if I am a business owner, I don't expect all of my kids to wanna be in my position and run my business.

That was fundamentally formed on my vision, and so I want. People that have their own vision, I wanna actually help partner with that. And so one of the frustrations how this shows up in the organization is, is we can get buy-in at the very top where there's, where there's proximity and greater alignment to the vision, it's because we're leveraging organizational vision instead of looking for shared purpose, which is much more robust.

But to your point, diverse and different. But can come together. And so the shared purpose economic model is about how do we understand actually the value, the cost, the value exchange, as well as the purpose that is unique and different between the organization and the individual. And how do we get those things to work into a alignment with one another?

Because if you can create value that bring, if you can create value that contributes value to both the organization and the individual, and reduces cost for both. You've got natural engagement, alignment, motivation. But what we often try and do, and we don't really diagnose it this way, but developed a tool to help with this, is oftentimes we look to create value.

By increasing the cost to the individual. And then we see these things as in conflict, but if we actually understand the underlying data, we can look for alignment in those things, and that's where the experience changes greatly. That's where it makes sense to invest in. How do we build more value for the, for the individual?

How do we reduce costs to the individual and not look at it as. A scapegoat or making it easier, giving an out of responsibility and all these things, like, no, how can we actually empower people to reduce their own cost, experience and the companies at the same time, and oh, vice versa. How do we create more value for the individual and the company at the same time?

Like, this is not rocket science, but it, it goes down into the granular level of what our paradigms are built on. It's just we, a lot of times I think from a leadership standpoint, we're only really paying attention to maybe half the picture. And, uh, and this is no one's fault. I'm not judging any leader. A lot of this comes down and really is more directed at what are the leadership paradigms that we've inherited for the last probably 50 to a hundred years.

That is just sort of the, the fishbowl that we live in, not realizing that there's a, a ocean of options.

Russel Lolacher: I love how fired up you got there, Ryan?

Ryan Rigterink: I get fired up about it because I see so many people, my kids included, who are not dignified for who they are and who they're meant to be. And this false dichotomy of, of, and the experience of being a cog in a wheel versus work, even remedial entry level work that can serve people at a higher level and energize them.

It's, it's so much waste of people and dignity and value that that can have a major impact on society. So yes, am I fired up about it every time I talk about it, because at the end of the day, it's about, it's not just about bottom line of for a, you know, profit or an organization. It's about, you know, what are we building in a greater sense in the, in the process.

Russel Lolacher: Yep. Uh, uh, absolutely like profit's, a result. It's how we get there and the journey to get to that point that we're talking about here. So we, we talked about. Purpose being such a personal thing because that's where we, when we redesign ourselves, when we dig into what our purpose is. Absolutely. But I wanna pull back a bit of what you're talking about to foundational, because if I am leading a team, if I'm leading individuals, I have to know them to understand what their purpose and their motivation is.

They need to be comfortable telling me that because they don't want to be judged or dismissed. How do you invite those conversations? Because as much as I agree with everything you've said, there's some foundational relationship work that really needs to happen before we can double down on this new way of working.

Ryan Rigterink: A hundred percent. Uh, trust has been and always will be the currency of relationships and business. And so to your point, if we don't have trust, uh, you can introduce any model on the planet, it's not gonna have an impact. Uh, because trust is, is the currency of, of literally what you're talking about is really flow and friction.

Again, it's without trust. That is friction. Uh, and when and when we build trust, that at least provides, uh, the avenue for, it's almost like our circulatory system, right? If we have, if our blood, uh, gets sticky and starts sticking together, we, it's literally diagnosed. It's a blood disorder, right? And so a lot of times, this is what happens in our organizations where our organizations, if we diagnosed, uh, the trust level.

In these things, we, we would probably, uh, find that there's some sickle cell, some, uh, maybe some lack of, uh, of, of fluidity and flow, which is the lifeblood of the business. And so these things do have to be built, and there's no shortcuts around that. Um, the, actually the most important starting point is really the paradigm of how you show up as a person and all the, all the things are you authentically.

Do you authentically have, what's the best interest of the person in mind? And oh, by the way, does that show up in the times and context that actually matter? Or is it just, you know, said as a, as a slogan to attract you to the organization or, you know, so I think most people are fed up with, uh. You know, slogans and, uh, things that, uh, don't go beyond the business card or the wall and aren't translated into practice.

And so that's why we have a whole, one of the reasons why we have a whole generation that's, you know, is crying out and wants the authentic and what's genuine because, uh, you know, what can we trust, especially at the pace of change. Trust is already, uh, difficult to ascertain just from a, uh. Foundation level, but when it comes to people, um, can I trust you, is the first unspoken question that, uh, everyone asks themself, uh, in that employer employee relationship.

And so, uh, I mean, it's, it's not a fun response, but the best response is probably look in the mirror. Are you trustworthy? Am I trustworthy? You know, I'll put myself at the forefront of this. Like, am I trustworthy? Do, am I responding in the way that would build trust? Or a road trust over the course of time.

And so inventorying that, uh, you know, psychological safety is a great framework and, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's well studied. But what's I'd say still the missing piece on that is, is the journey we can diagnose, but we haven't necessarily learned how to treat very well in that. And so, um, you know, how do we go from.

You know, less trustworthy practices to more trustworthy practices. And so that's, that's where the real shift happens, uh, because it doesn't matter, you know, I'll say again, it doesn't matter if you use my framework or a hundred others. If you're not building trust on the foundational level with people, then I, I don't, I don't care how good the, how good the nutrients are in the blood, it's not flowing to where it needs to get.

Russel Lolacher: So we're doing this work, we're realigned, but as leaders, as team leaders, we still have to do things like performance goals and there's role changes in organizations. How do and, and there could be a culture that doesn't really believe in the idea of this kind of work, but we still have to realign, we still have to move forward with purpose.

Is it a matter of protecting ourselves within a larger culture? Is it a matter of, well, I don't fit in so I must leave. Sorry. Team, what do we do as leaders in organizations that may not align with that purpose that we've defined for ourselves and our team?

Ryan Rigterink: Well, uh. That's a very context specific question. Um, but you know, what do we do? It's, I. It's, it's not trying to sidestep the question, but really it depends. Um, it very much depends on the scenario. There was, uh, I've coached a number of people in career that's kind of a career question, right? Career coaching question.

And it's, it's too multifaceted to give sort of a can to answer. Um, I think some general guidance is. What, what can you do apart from, uh, the context? And is the context working for or against you? And that's a judgment call of having honest questions and having honest conversations about, you know, here's, here's my intention, here are my goals.

To the degree that you feel that you can, uh, you know, trust and have those conversations. But if you can't, that's a pretty strong indicator in and of itself that, uh, maybe. May, maybe there's a better place for you to show up and, and that aligns, uh, to who you want to become. So it's, it's not so much about, you know, uh, categorization, but judgment call on those things and, and how much something aligns to and serve someone's future.

It depends on the job, it depends on the leadership, and it depends on even the awareness of the fit in those things. And so, um, I think. It's, it's a lot more, you know, a gradient scale than a categorization type thing. Right. So, um, that, that would be my answer, I guess response off the cuff on that, when it comes to, there was one other thing that I, I think, uh, there is, is worth.

Elevating, and that was within your question. We still have to do performance reviews and all of these things, right? I would push back on that and say, really? Do we, how, how, how are these things performing and getting the results? You know, our, is the version of how we're doing this. Really optimal. There's companies who are trying and experimenting with all sorts of different things.

Not all companies have performance reviews. Not all, uh, companies and positions have individual performance metrics. Some have team metrics, some have, you know, some manage the inputs instead of the outputs. There's a lot of different approaches that can be experienced with experimented with that. Um. I, I think we need to challenge a lot of our assumptions on these things.

I'm not saying just, you know, try anything under the sun, but I think, uh, I think some of these practices are, are so one size fits all and I, we don't live in a one size fits all business or industry or, or structure or anything like that. And so, um, I think, I think to reevaluate the structures we're doing.

Is actually a really good starting point as leaders to see what, what is the result indirectly or directly known or unknown at the moment that our systems are producing. And so system improvement is actually a very key component of, of the results we're getting. We can do all the right things and have a bad system and process and it undermines the outcome.

And so, um, I'm a big fan of questioning. Reevaluating and taking a, like, starting with a blank sheet of paper and like, if we didn't inherit all of this, how would we build it, build it from scratch if we had that ability And at least give a, uh, compare and contrast of, uh, of questioning and authentically reexamining because I think our systems are breaking and have, are not serving most people and organizations at the level that they could.

Russel Lolacher: You're getting curious again, Ryan. I love it. Uh, like why do we do what we do? Why couldn't we do things differently? So you've consulted across several industries. I'm kind of curious if you've seen any trends or consistencies. Cultural practices organizations do that they're actually supporting this kind of work of finding purpose, finding personal purpose.

Are their organizations getting it right and what are they doing?

Ryan Rigterink: So it's, it's still very, very early on a lot of these things I think. Um. I think the people who are doing this, um. At the forefront of this are not only aligned with the pain, but are willing to question the current system and modus operandi of, of how we've done things. And so, you know, like anything, you've got the bell curve of, of the early adopters.

Uh, but in terms of people who are leaders who are experiencing the pain the most, are, a lot of that's in the service industry where, you know, there's a, a, a talent shortage that's. Pervades almost every industry. And if you have a service oriented company, uh, you know, unless you're able to automate it, your service company is highly dependent on, on people.

And so, uh, to, to the degree that. Your customer value is created with people, uh, is is the degree that, uh, that leaders practically experience that pain. And so then it's a matter of, uh, you know, pain, proximity, and also openness to, uh, to new things and, and, and. Innovative approaches. So, uh, the ones that I have, uh, worked with tend to tend to be in check both of those boxes.

They're, they're open-minded and innovative, but they're also, uh, at the higher end of experiencing the pain and, and honestly looking for a solution. So.

Russel Lolacher: So walk the walk and talk the talk. Ryan, what's your purpose and motivation outta curiosity? You've done the work, so you post your child. What's your mo purpose and motivation?

Ryan Rigterink: My purpose and motivation is to build a new infrastructure so that, uh, people are dignified with value. And that work, uh, in the next generation is not just about tasks, it's about becoming, uh, and that, uh, work we, we no longer use. People to do work. We use work to develop and grow people, and we do that with greater insight and strategy and intention, and everybody, individual organization and society is better off for it.

So it's really defined that to redefine the nature of work itself so that it dignifies people and organization and community at at an at the next level.

Russel Lolacher: I ask that 'cause I if, if anybody's listening and wants to sort of figure out what their purpose is, what does that tangibly look like for another person? So I was just kind of curious as to what yours looked like. Uh, I'm sure it's probably a little shorter than that, but I I know what you mean. So if anybody's listening and they want to do that work and they wanna figure out their personal purpose so they can bring it to work, that they can connect the dots for themselves.

What's that first baby step? What's that first thing they could do tomorrow to go, not the full on course, not a full book. That is certainly on the path, but what is that first, next step?

Ryan Rigterink: Yeah. So some of that would depend on the work that they've already done. Like a personality test, as basic as it is, is, is good data. That's a good starting point. There's a lot of different ones. I don't, I don't promote anyone in particular, but, you know, self really talking about self-awareness on a number of different fronts.

And so, um, if, assuming that most of the audience has already done that, uh, I, I'm a big, uh, proponent of inventory or desires. Actually become more aware of all of your genuine desire, desires across the different, uh, domains of life. And, and then actually assess like how much, like even a simple one through five, you know, how strong is this desire and getting, um, aware.

Of, of almost like a personal map of our desires, because that becomes some really good data about, okay. Is there any patterns within that that are emerging across multiple domains? Is there any things that, that we can begin to dialogue about and begin to, you know, sort of pattern, recognize and, and get insights on, on, you know, that's, I'm, that really matters a lot and I'm not doing anything with that.

And so it can be, it can be a starting point to recognize, um. Where we're at and where we wanna be and sort of map out the gap between.

Russel Lolacher: That is Ryan Rigterink. He's a speaker leadership consultant, founder of Leaders Ops and of Workgaze, and he is got himself a book you should check out called Redesign Life, Finding Purpose and Balance, Amidst Chaos and Uncertainty. Thanks for being here, Ryan.

Ryan Rigterink: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It was a great conversation.