When Job Fit Fails ADHD at Work

ADHD in the workplace is often framed as a performance issue — but what if the real problem is job fit?

In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel Lolacher sits down with ADHD career coach Shell Mendelson to unpack why capable, skilled ADHD employees struggle in roles that were never designed for how they think, focus, and work.

Together, they explore why performance improvement plans miss the point, how workplace expectations quietly erode confidence, and why creativity and innovation only show up under the right conditions. This conversation challenges leaders to stop pathologizing behavior and start examining environments — and helps ADHD professionals better understand when a role is working against them.

If you’re a leader trying to support neurodivergent employees, or someone with ADHD questioning whether work “just isn’t clicking,” this episode offers clarity without clichés.

And connect with me for more great content!

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Transcript

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Russel Lolacher: Okay. And she's here with me now. Hi, Shell, welcome to the show.

Shell Mendelson: Well, thank you so much. Yes, it's great to be here. Thank you so much.

Russel Lolacher: Today we're gonna get No, my pleasure. Today we're gonna talk about a topic that we've kind of danced around over the years of this show. We talk about neurodiversity quite a bit. Obviously, diversity is a huge topic, but preparing a workplace, being proactive, intentional about preparing a workplace when it comes to ADHD and ADD. Hugely important. I'm super curious to talk about this, but before we get into any of that, shell, I have to ask the one question I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your best or worst employee experience?

Shell Mendelson: Um, well, like we discussed before, it was in my twenties, many, many, many, many years eons ago. And, uh, that was when I, before I really knew what my, I was supposed to be doing out there, workwise, and I was doing secretarial work. I also had just graduated. So, uh, from college and I got a teaching credential and I couldn't find a job as a teacher.

Uh, so I went into doing legal secretarial work and I was so bad at, I mean, I was, my skills were there, but I hated it so much, which is really the story of many of us neurodivergence, is that if we don't like what we're doing, we're not gonna do a great job. I got fired from probably 10 jobs. And I, my, you know, I couldn't figure it out because basically I had the skills, right?

So it wasn't about my skills, it was about, I just hated the work I was doing. And that, of course, led me to getting my ba, my master's degree in the rest is history, uh, what I'm doing as a, uh, an ADHD career coach. Yeah, so.

Russel Lolacher: Through that path, like, I mean, leaving 10 jobs, how did you work with your or didn't work, maybe with your bosses and leaders in those experiences? Because you're obviously miserable, the work's not working for you. Your bosses are leaders are obviously noticing this. What was your relationship with, with the people that were overseeing you?

Shell Mendelson: Well, I was kind of young and immature basically, but at the time. Um, I just, the one that I real, that really stands out to me was a, uh, an attorney I work with who started giving me all her personal stuff to do and I got very resentful of that. 'cause I thought, that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not here to do your, like, personal, uh, business find, you know, get a personal assistant.

Anyway, my attitude was not great. So I ended up getting shoveled. I remember I worked for this big corporation and they kept trying to fit me in in different places and I kept screwing it up because I just hated it. And, and it was way back when technology was starting to, um, you know, like some companies were using technology that I just couldn't understand.

I couldn't figure it out. I didn't wanna figure it out. That was the main thing. The main thing with us is if we don't wanna do it. It's not gonna get done. We can't force ourselves, we can't fake it till we make it. So,

Russel Lolacher: Anybody that I, any, I totally get that and anyone I've worked with from a neurodivergent standpoint, that completely tracks. But I also notice. Usually they are the most honest people you'll ever meet for good and for bad. Like they will be extremely honest in the sense of the environment they're working in, what's working, what's not working.

The delivery maybe is not always the best or how it hurts themselves. Probably career limiting move comment, which I hate. I hate that term more than life itself because it limits when I think leaders, if they're really doing their job, are embracing. That honesty are embracing, trying to figure out fit, but I, it's always such a friction piece when there's that honesty and, and leaders not knowing how to handle that kind of brutal honesty. Sometimes

Shell Mendelson: Well, I think you said it. You said it correctly. It's the delivery. Uh, so one of the things we are not particularly great at all the time is the delivery, because many times we just have thoughts cross our head and we just have to say it. And when we say it, we're not thinking about, oh, how can I, uh, couch this in such a way that, you know, uh, it's not going to.

Completely destroy someone or, you know, I, I've had time to, you know, I've had many years to like, figure out how to manage all that, but at the time I was just so, I just felt like I was better than what I was doing. That I, I, you know, why am I here and then getting fired from that basically myself.

Wreaked havoc on my self-esteem. And that was the piece of it that I didn't recognize because I, I wasn't clear that, okay, it's because you're in the wrong job that this is happening. And that's what I tell people who are mis getting fired, put on PIP programs or whatever, put, uh, performance improvement programs.

Um. I always tell them, if you are put on one of those programs, you are clearly in the wrong job. It's very black and white. Uh, you shouldn't be there. It should be, you should be looking at a lateral move or looking for things that are, are, that fit you better. Um, but for me, they try to move, like I said, they tried to move me around to different people.

Just, I just never could make it work, uh, because I just didn't like doing it. But on the other hand, the skills I had. Were very helpful in my career throughout, like I had these great skills, uh, secretarial, whatever skills that I use every, I still to this day, I use those skills in my own work. And what I later discovered was I don't like working for other people.

I just don't like working for other people. Uh, and that. Uh, you know, that even included the people I work with where I was doing work. I really loved, because I don't know if I should tell the story about how I tra transitioned to going self-employed, but it's up to you. You can ask me. You can ask me if you're ready. I can go into

Russel Lolacher: Fair enough. And I'm super curious, but I wanna, I wanna get into this because I think I agree with you that about, it's about the job, but I also think it's a lot about the leaders and their ability to listen, be curious, understand their own team and their people and fit and skillset and as opposed to, you know, what Shell's not fitting in this job.

It's Shell's fault by Shell. You know what I mean? As opposed to. Well, this isn't working. How can we work with them to get the best from them to adapt to I, I mean, I feel like it's not a a, a round peg, round hole kind of situation, right? And, and people, unfortunately, there's a lot of, and I'm using air quotes for leaders, look at it as a check box exercise as it one equals one plus one equals two, when it's a bigger conversation than that.

So that's kind of what we're talking about today and that's why I wanna start at brass tacks a bit here. What, how do you define ADHD? Let's, let's start there of what we're even talking about first when it comes to A-D-A-D-D and ADHD. What are we really talking about in the context of work?

Shell Mendelson: Well, really there's only ADHD. Uh, there's, there's um, two. There's the, uh, hyperactive outwardly, and then there's a hyperactive inwardly. So really it's all the same, like all your thoughts are kind of converging and everything. I am not an expert on the topic of ADHD in general because like I tell people, I'm an ADHD career coach, so my background is career, but when I got my own diagnosis very late, late in life, much later, um, I discovered that the people I needed to work with were my own tribe.

Like me, and that was about 15 years ago. Um, but the difference for my, so, so for myself, I just basically talk about what my own experience is. And you're right, it is about the leaders. And I, I just wanna take one step back. The people I work with, I think tried because they knew that I had the skills. So even back then, I think they tried to help me fit in.

Um, not everyone, some people were very intolerant. Uh, but there were a few, and they were mostly lawyers that I work with. Uh, they tried, they tried, but with me, it just was not, it was a losing case. Um, but anyway, as far as ADHD is concerned, uh, the way it impacts me is that I would say on the positive side, the creativity part, um, that I am a very creative person in many ways, not just art.

Or, you know, the, the people sometimes interpret creativity as being the fine arts or something like that. No, we're talking, um. It, it goes way well beyond that into strategizing, brainstorming, systematizing, um, coming up with new ideas for products and service, uh, services. And I've always been able to do that.

That's something that I'm really, really good at. I created a whole franchise system, which is another story. Um, and those are things that are really important to me, like what I'm doing now, coming down here. Uh, where I'm, I'm living, I plan to do retreats. It's like I have all these ideas, like many of us do.

We have many ideas, and some people don't know how to funnel those ideas into something that they can actually work with because they become, um, they become paralyzed at some point where, uh, that's what I, as a career person, that's what I help people. Kind of, uh, prioritize and understand what the areas are that they need to be looking at versus those that might become later or in some other capacity.

Um, but for me, yes, I, I get distracted very easily. Uh, I have to have, I know what holds my attention. I know what I need to do to, to kind of stay focused, but staying focused on things that I'm not interested in is a challenge. It really is. Um, and sometimes yes, I've done the blurting, I think recently something, I can't remember.

I just remember it was not a good thing. It didn't end, it didn't end well. I think it was with my ex or something. But, you know, uh, yeah. So I have to be very careful, especially I have a, a, a son who's ADHD. He's 32 and, uh. You know, I have to be very careful with him because I think parents in general have to be careful.

They're often tiptoeing around their kids. But with ADHD, it's like you have to have somebody kind of watching over you while you speak to your child, adult child. But yeah, I, I, I would say it impacts me quite a bit. I mean, I'm looking around here going, where is everything? Right? Um, because I'm trying to unpack, it's very, uh, challenging.

It can be very challenging.

Russel Lolacher: What are, so everything you're describing, and I've heard this sort of off the cuff joke of ADHD is my superpower because I mean, you're talking about innovation, you're talking about systems, thinking, you're talking, these are all things that most organizations want in their employees. They want them to be thinking in this way, but because they don't fit a certain mold of you are not like me.

So I don't understand it. So what are leaders getting wrong? Like what are the common myths that they're missing? Force people like yourself to go, I'm outta here. Like what are leaders missing in this?

Shell Mendelson: I think they're not very tolerant sometimes of, um, the kind of the working conditions that we often need to really just focus, sit down, focus, and accomplish what we wanna focus on. And it starts with being the fit, being the right fit. So if it's not the right fit. It's always going to be off. And the pe that's when people come to me for help, right?

They're like, I can't figure out how to make this work. They do a lot of what's called masking. You've heard that term, right? Uh, they try and fit themselves, you know, a square peg in a round hole. You've heard that one. Uh, when we are really outside the box kind of thinkers. And what's missing for employers is understanding that in the right.

Under the right conditions and in the right position, we're gonna be the best of the best. We're gonna be top of the line. They won't find anybody even close to the capabilities that we have when it's the right. When it's the right fit and under the right conditions, and those conditions, they may, may need to stretch on a little bit.

They're different for everybody. And, and one of the things I do when I work with people is we go into great detail about what those working conditions need to be for, for that person. So they really understand why things didn't work in the past and they couldn't, they didn't know how to articulate to an employer what they needed.

Uh, they just kind of, they might have asked for something and, uh, it, the employer just straight up said no. And that's very, uh, that can be very damaging in a lot of ways to try and then have to go back and figure out how to make this thing work without feeling like, oh, you know, I, not only do I not like this position, but.

It is even worse now 'cause they won't listen to me. And it's, and it's scary, I think for a lot of, uh, people, neurodivergent people to say what they need. Uh, if it sounds like it's an accommodation that other peop that, that makes things easier for them, but also other people would wanna have too. So they're kind of like, well, we gotta do this across the board.

But it's really, it really needs to be taken. Individually, like look at the person, what are their needs specifically? And unfortunately, not very many people really know in detail what those needs are, so they can't really articulate it well. Um, so it, it goes both ways. The person needs to know what they need, the conditions, and the employer needs to ask the question and maybe know some of the possibilities that could.

Work for them, but they can't read their mind. Right. It's not a mind reading. You can't, so employers aren't really to blame if a person can't, uh, articulate what their needs are to begin with. So

Russel Lolacher: You mentioned, you mentioned accommodation, and that's where I'm kind of curious about. So the last thing I want this also to be is a checkbox exercise where it's just sort of like, okay, we did that one thing for you, Sally. Why are you bugging me again? We did a thing. So is there a difference between accommodation and actively designing with neurodiversity in mind?

Like it, it feels like there's a lot more intention involved. I just, I know you used accommodation, but I feel like that's almost still a half measure.

Shell Mendelson: I wish I could get employers just to, um, the thing I, I've been trying to do when I've been on podcasts recently are to reach employers about this. I think they need to, um, have not just ask questions. But ask the person to really break down what they need. I mean, it's, it's, like I said, they're not mind readers and the person needs to be able to articulate it and understand it and be okay with it.

That this is truly what I need. I need to be working in this kind of space. You know, cubicles don't work for me. Sorry. Um, I need to have like an office with a door that I can. Leave open if I want close, when I want, I need to be able to go and do a project maybe in a, in a lunchroom if I need to, or go out to a coffee house.

And just because I, I can focus very well on getting work done in a coffee house where it's noisy. Everybody is different, right? So you need to understand yourself and the employer when they know that they can say, oh, okay, you've got this project. It's due at this point now. What do you need to get it done?

Like what are the, the, uh, not aco, I wouldn't call 'em accommodations. I call them conditions. Under what conditions, right. Because the word accommodations is triggering. I think it triggers everybody, you know, and I think even like people feel different when they're asking for accommodations. Like I tell people, don't ask for accommodations.

Know what you need and what your conditions need to be, and then you can present it as a win-win kind of a thing to the employer. So for me, it's more about empowering the the individual to really determine how open the employer is and how much they value. Them as an employee when they're able to say this is, these are the conditions that I need to get this project done.

To, um, come up with some ideas about, you know, some area that's important right now to work on as a team member, you know, how to play as a team member. All these things are really, I hate to say it, I put it back into the, the, um. Court of the individual to, to understand themselves because you can't ask somebody else to, to figure it out.

But just know that employee, employees, um, the employer, if they're open to asking if they've done any kind of a detailed analysis of what the conditions are that they need to do their very best work. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: It does. It absolutely does. And I, so in speaking to ADHD individuals, neurodivergent people, as you're coaching them through that, what I wanna help the leaders here, I wanna help, I wanna help the employer here a bit to get this right. So what questions, what questions would they want leaders to be asking more of?

Is it. And also when, because I'm, this is a journey, like is all the heavy lifting here questions at the onboarding stage? Is it through the, my perf the, is it through the performance piece, uh, performance review piece? Where would you, what questions should they be asking and when should they be asking them?

Shell Mendelson: I think, uh, in the interview. Uh, it would be important to ask, what are the conditions you need to do your best work? That's a very simple question. What conditions, uh, do you need? And don't be shy about saying what that is. And I think the person who can say the things to can really be truthful about that, authentic about that they're gonna have.

They're gonna appreciate that the, they're gonna employer will say, I, I've heard, had employers tell me, I wish people would ask, you know, tell me the conditions. I wish they would express that to me. Um, that, because it sometimes it makes a difference between a person who's just applying for a job who can tick all the boxes, and a person who really understands themselves and what they want, and they're there for the reason that they feel that employer can deliver to them.

So that they can then do their very best work and then it, then it is truly a win-win. I don't know if I'm making sense here, but basically I think employers need to ask that question. Okay. And give an example for, you know, of, of when they're doing certain types of things on the job. Give an example of what the physical environment is like for them because the physical environment is really important for us.

Russel Lolacher: So a lot of your work is in coaching ADHD employees and leaders and so forth, and it's kind of, and to your point, you're like they have to take responsibility themselves. So what. What questions are they asking? What are they looking for when they come into an organization or moving to a new team and going, okay, I need to see if this is gonna work for me.

How would we empower them?

Shell Mendelson: I always say the very first question is. Uh, to ask the employer, is the job that I am applying for today in its description, the job I will be doing on day one? Yeah, and the reason that's an important question is that if there's any kind of, what I call, it's kind of a negative term, but bait and switch.

Where they, they will say, okay, we want you over here for a while before you do this. That happens. Um, that could be the kiss of death, you know, for somebody who really thinks that they're doing one thing and that's what they apply it for. Uh, with ADHD it can be really a, a bad experience if what they're putting in them in is, is something that they really don't want to be doing.

Or didn't expect to be doing. Um, now I don't know about neurotypical people, but for us it's a very, um, it can be very shaming in a lot of ways to think that, oh, okay, so they're putting me over here and not here. So that is an important question for the employee to ask. Um, and.

Russel Lolacher: Do you follow up with that? I'm just trying to think from a consistency standpoint. So if you're asking this at the onset at the beginning, and that's a great question going, is this job description actually the job or is there like one little line there that lets you do whatever you want in that position, uh, and making you do whatever you want?

Is there. How do you get consistent? Like if, if I'm an A-A-D-H-D employee, I'm an ADHD leader, how do I follow up with that? Because maybe it is a bait and switch, but they're still gonna have to stand up for themselves before they, you know, finally make a decision to leave. Or is it at that performance review, is it at those one-on-ones going.

You know what? It's still not working for me. Can we make adjustments? Like where do you recommend that they, they further try to empower themselves for some consistency for some relationship?

Shell Mendelson: Well, first of all, I listen to hear the answer and if they hesitate, it's probably not gonna be a good fit. So I, I really do encourage people to say, this doesn't look like it's gonna be a good fit, and just not, because you can't go in as what I call a job baker and expect the employer to really feel like, oh yeah, this is a great.

You know, person. 'cause so many people come in and they're just kind of baking for a job, even though they fit the description, but they need the money. And the other, and the people I work with go in because it's the right fit for them, or they think it's the right fit for them. So that's why they need to clarify even more with the employer.

Um, but so you can tell when you're in the job, it doesn't take very long to, um, really see that this. Is not gonna work for me. You know, for me it took like a day. I could figure it out. Uh, but it's, it's just the more awareness you have, that's what I try and get across as, as how important it is for you to be aware.

And that's what I work with people on, is gaining that awareness and often they're just amazed at what they don't know and what they could have been. Looking at in the, to make sure that the job is the right job they're applying for right? Or at least the beginnings, or at least on the surface it looks like the right jobs.

And then the rest is asking the right questions. And employers who are interested in this person listening, uh, obviously listening to, uh, somebody say, this is what I need to do. The best work for you employer, for you. This is what I, these are the conditions. Um, are you open to that? And if they're not, you can tell kind of just by the hesitation or the side glance or you, you know, the like, uh, eye rolling, whatever, you know.

I mean, it just, it really, and, and I, I train people to look for those signs because I don't want them to get into one more situation that just. It really takes 'em down a few pegs, and then it's like starting from scratch. Uh, in terms of their self-confidence and those, I'm talking about the employees, the employers, just be aware, uh, especially if somebody's worked with me.

They know they're, they're applying for the right position, so they, they really should know that that is, that person is gonna be a good fit, uh, for. For them because they've been kind of trained to look for the right positions. Um, so I, I do what's called a self accommodation plan, which I kind of made up that term, but it, it tends to work because people can, and then when we go through all the physical and what I call non-physical conditions that are important for that person, those, that is how they, those are the questions they ask the employer.

And if the employer will just listen and, and say, can we do that? You know, is it possible to do that? And it's not playing favorites, it's just giving that person the opportunity to do the best work that they can do. I didn't, did I answer your question?

Russel Lolacher: You did, and it springboards me into the next question I have, which is, and, and, and maybe I'm picking this up a bit. Wrong or incorrectly, but you we're talking about fit and it absolutely has to be this right fit. Are we talking ones and zeros here? Are we saying, you know, if it's not fit, you leave, or in your coaching, are you going, okay, it's not a direct perfect fit.

Here's some tools, here's some skills you can use to at least continuing the job until it's, you know, it's just too strenuous. It's

Shell Mendelson: Absolutely. Oh yeah,

Russel Lolacher: so what are we looking for? What are you recommending for them to be more. I don't wanna say it's a perfect fit, but what are you coaching ADHD employees or leaders to do to sort of still work through the process?

Shell Mendelson: 65% is what I say.

Russel Lolacher: Okay.

Shell Mendelson: it, no, it's never gonna be a perfect fit, especially for many of us who really are more leader types or we're more, um, entrepreneurial. Uh, so in some ways working for someone else is like, until you figure that out, it can be testy because you don't have control over the, the situa the situation, especially like if.

You know what, when you're working for somebody else, you don't have to hold control over your, your work. Um, and they understand that. But yes. And I say, well, what percentage are you enjoying at this point in the work you do? And it's usually somewhere around 15%. I say, imagine if it's bumped up to 65 to start.

Uh, that then you have some, some room wiggle room there to play with on both ends. You can, you know, the employee can evaluate whether or not this is a good, ultimately a good fit for them or, and the employee employer can say, not so much, and they can determine whether or not there might be other positions that would work better.

'cause they would value that person. They could see that person has something going for them.

Russel Lolacher: I, I'm hearing self-awareness and situational awareness is so key to because as, as an ADHD in, uh, person or a leader that's managing an ADHD person, you need to know how you're showing up. You need to know how you, what you're triggered by, but also understanding what's working and what's not in any particular ecosystem or situation within the workplace.

So there's a lot of awareness that looks like it needs to, to be happening in these spaces.

Shell Mendelson: Yes. Um, it, it's very true and I think it's important for employers to recognize, um, when they see like a diamond in the rough, for example, and, yeah, okay, they're not perfect, but what, what is it that, I mean, just ask yourself what maybe what conditions would make it a little bit. Easier for this person to navigate, uh, the position and shine and give us what we need, you know, be super productive while they're at it because when we're in the right fit, the productivity goes way up, way up.

Russel Lolacher: Absolutely. So we're not working in a vacuum. We've kind of already talked about there's this relationship that needs to happen between employees and employers. Um, so I'm kind of curious if I'm a leader, I'm working with this team, what are some early signals maybe that ADHD individual did not bring up those questions at the auth onset, or the leader.

So what should a leader be looking for? Early signals that a team member may be struggling because of ADHD unfriendly environment.

Shell Mendelson: Well, I mean, outwardly we don't hide stuff very, you know, we don't hide the, our emotions are, uh, I mean some people do, but I shouldn't say that. That's not true across the board. But, um, I think you just ask, you know, I just ask the question, how are you doing? How are things going for you? Now without it being a threatening kind of thing, like how are things going for you?

Is there anything you need that would make it easier for you to get this done or this done? Do you need more time to, like, do we need to stretch the deadline a little bit? Working from, you know, one of the non, non-physical obviously is doing hybrid work. Many of us like to work from home, so can you get this done better if you have some time to just work from home?

Or, um, maybe not being so rigid about the office thing. Uh, like I don't, it does, it doesn't for me, getting a project done, I, I really have to be on my own. I can't be distracted by people coming by and asking me a lot of questions or people just roaming around or paying attention to what I'm doing or popping when I had offices, popping in the office unannounced, that kind of thing.

Um. Yeah. So it's important to ask how are you doing, how are things going? Is there anything that, any condition that you would need that would help the, you do get things done on time? You know, just ask is there, is it, what do you need? And if it's impossible to do, then the employer needs to be clear about that.

We can't do that. Um, is it, do you think it's going to be something that will. Pertain, uh, excuse that will continue in the future. Um, and if so, do you feel this is a good fit for you? I mean, without being threatening, just asking the questions, you know?

Russel Lolacher: But when, but when we ask questions, we're assuming there's trust, we're assuming there's psychological safety, that the answers that are coming are going to be. Even to, to the point we've already made that uh, uh, you know, those with ADHD tend to be a little bit more brutal in their responses. A little bit more.

I say brutally honest, maybe that's a better way of putting it, um, brutally honest. But there still needs to be that, like you said, there could be some shame and they feel like they're being, anybody's being treated special or being singled out or accommodating. So. Does trust and psychological safety look different?

And, and the reason I ask that is 'cause I've worked with, uh, ADHD, uh, myself and in those environments, I'm trying to be, to your point, super curious, but I'm also trying to just listen. I'm just being act. I'm not trying to correct. I'm not trying to tell them what they think or what they should be thinking or that they're wrong or gaslighting in any way.

It's purely a, but how can we get to this? You tell me where can I meet you halfway in trying to establish that, and I don't know if I was successful or not. Sometimes I think I was, sometimes I don't think I was very well, depending on the individual. But does, does, does setting up the table for trust and psychological safety look different when we're working with ADHD individuals, or is it pretty much the same as with anybody? No.

Shell Mendelson: It really is. It depends on the situation. It depends on the people. It depends. You are obviously somebody who's open and willing to listen. Not every employer or manager is, and in fact, I always tell people probably the worst. Managers are people who are ADHD, but they're undiagnosed. Undiagnosed. ADHD managers can be really difficult for another person with ADHD.

Um, so it's what I, I'm trying to think how to put this, but I think. If everyone was like you, it would be great. But I don't think that's reality. You know, honestly, I wanna give you an example of, uh, a supervisor I spoke with who was managing a group of engineers within a state department. This is in California, and he said to me, the best engineer I have has ADHD and unbelievable.

Uh, worker, but they won't do this one thing. They won't fill out this form that the state requires. Now, this is a bureaucratic kind of environment, very bureaucratic, and they have to fill out this form. They will never do it. And what I I say is that's because that person doesn't see how it pertains to the job.

So it's something that they'll either forget to do, put it aside. It, it's just, it's, it becomes like a non thing to them. And people with ADHD listening to this understand exactly what I'm talking about. And I was one of those people. I worked for a company like that too. And the truth is, and I'll tell you my story, when I was, um, my very first job as a vocational rehabilitation counselor, which is what I was.

Trained, uh, to do in my graduate program was I was immediately almost a superstar 'cause I loved it so much. Right. And the truth is, when you could see somebody like that in the making, generally employers would bend over backwards to accommodate me and I would never ask. Right. And one of them was doing a form and I remember I had a manager walk in and say, uh, she.

You're supposed to do this form every week. And I just looked at her and I said, I'm not gonna do that form Phyllis. And she just walked out and that was it. Okay, so that's not gonna be realistic for a lot of people. So what I say is, look okay if it's absolutely necessary, because as in a state bureaucracy, obviously you have to do this thing.

Why don't you mark 10 minutes off of your time manager. And go in and sit with this person, you, you both schedule it and just walk through the form together. Oh, I can do that.

This is my very best engineer. Why wouldn't I do that? Right. But it's just a thought process of, you know, you can take the time. Schedule the time to help the person get the thing done that's so important to get done that they refuse to do, but they're still doing amazing work, right?

Russel Lolacher: You are bringing up a piece for me that is, again, a huge, I'm a huge proponent of which is better communication. And what I'm hearing from you is that if we want to communicate better in building those relationships, we have to tie things to value a lot more. Is that what I'm hearing? Is it because I, I'm kind of curious as to, to make this work for everybody.

How do we adapt our communication to work better? And I'm hearing the value attachment.

Shell Mendelson: Yeah, I think if there are things like forms that don't really relate to the actual work or things that you need to explain why it's important to get it done, what it does, what the purpose of it is, because I remember nobody explained that to me. This is why we, you just have to do it right. So if you, if you can tie it to something that.

Is, makes it ex, you know, explains why it is important, um, and, and do better at trying, communicating why these things need to happen instead of just blurting out, uh, orders and saying, you're screwing up. I don't know, being,

Russel Lolacher: But that.

Shell Mendelson: they don't mean people don't mean to be shaming. Everybody is different. Like I said, it's.

Some people have their own personal agendas as managers and uh, it doesn't work well with people with who are neurodivergent because there's, it's very black and white instead of, we have so much, uh, we have so much outside the lines kind of stuff going on. There needs to be a little bit of creativity sometimes in the sense that.

How do we creatively get this person to do what we want 'em to do? They're amazing, right? First, recognize if you value that person, the first thing comes to how comes down to how much do you value that employee? Like how much do you actually see that they're what they're capable of, but they're just not doing it.

They're not doing everything we want them to do.

Russel Lolacher: I wanna throw a scenario for you, just outta curiosity, 'cause I wanna go back to that form for just a minute to wrap up this, this conversation on this is that sometimes those forms are stupid. Sometimes there is no reason to do that form. It's just 'cause they've been doing it forever and everybody just does it as a piece of it.

So we have this individual with ADHD going, I don't wanna do it. Why? Because it's dumb and they know it's dumb. The boss and the leader knows it's dumb. And yet, so as an employer, as a boss, as a leader. What are, how are you, do you just go, you know what, maybe I'll fight on your behalf for us to stop doing this form, or do we just agree as a, as a team to go, no, it's stupid, but we still have to do it.

What would you recommend in those situations?

Shell Mendelson: I would say. If I was the employer, I would say, yeah, we have to do it. It is kind of dumb. However, I will schedule the time with you so we can get it done and let's have some coffee, you know, we'll schedule a coffee time or something. That's good. I'll bring a treat.

Russel Lolacher: But it is an opportunity there though. I mean that, and I, I don't think enough people take the opportunity to go. Maybe it is stupid. Maybe it is an opportunity to do adjustments to our systems, our workflows, because they're saying something fresh eyes. there's an opportunity here to work smarter instead of just going with the status quo.

And I don't know if we always take a moment to take that opportunity to go, you know what? You're right. It is stupid. Let's look at ways of not having to do

Shell Mendelson: Well, of course I agree with that. And of course they should do that, you know, but at the same time, I'm, I'm looking at the reality in some situations, however, I, I would think that a company that wouldn't be open to suggestions, like that would not be the good fit for that person to begin with. So there's so many little, little things like that that.

Our indicators for the employee to, to understand that this may not be the right fit. And maybe what it is is what I call a means to an end job and just ha using that term means to an end for a lot of people, makes it easier to just show up every day and do it, and know they have to do it and feel good about the fact that they're moving and maybe moving in another direction, but at the same time, they're doing the work that needs to get done.

And when you don't do it well, that doesn't make you feel good. You know, you don't, most people don't feel good if they're doing a lousy job at something. But if it's a means to an end, it's like, yeah, I'm gonna do this thing and bite the bullet and just do it, you know? Uh, so that's kind of the way I think, and kind of, that's the coaching that I give people is on the means to an end kind of thing.

And people need to make a living. They need to pay the bills. And if they're able and capable of doing that job, everyone knows it's not forever, it's just getting the bills paid, but you're able to do it. You're competent, you, you're smart. You can do it right. Um, and if you need a little help, that's when I would say, because it's still, it's a means to an end.

You need the job, but you shouldn't have to be in a position to feel like you're gonna get fired if you ask for a condition. So that would make it easier for, for you to get it done?

Russel Lolacher: So we don't live and work in a vacuum, so we're helping these leaders be better with their ADHD employees. We're helping ADHD employees work better with their leaders dialogue, curiosity, but there's an organization. In that we work within and they may have a particular culture that is not as inviting.

So you could be this amazing little team that's a great subculture in a much larger organization that does not align. So what would you want to see in organizations to be a lot more inclusive when it comes to ADHD employees? Is it executive? Is it hr? Whose responsibility is it to make it better all round.

Shell Mendelson: Um, I think the, the top of the, like the CEOs and the um. You know, the, the C-Suite people definitely need to be able to understand how important it is to ask the questions or how important it's to have policies in place that actually are doing things that help people do their very best work, help people with ADHD, uh, provide them with, with the conditions that they need by asking the questions and having them do some self-evaluating like.

I, that's what I, I work with employees, uh, and employers to do is here's the, here are the questions. I mean, I've got 'em all. I do it as part of my work. I've got my self accommodation process that I help people with. Employers should just, I can, you know, work with them to do that. But it's important to have, uh, the knowledge and be open to it.

So that's, if somebody comes to me, it means they're open to it. Uh, but people in general who are in kind of in the in-between and most of the people I work with are working, so it is kind of a means to an end situation. So you hear about all that? It does. They do see some, some differences and what they're doing and they sometimes they don't always feel the need to quit right away or feel freaked out that they're gonna get fired.

Or if they do get fired, it's not gonna be. Uh, devastating. 'cause they have somewhere to go. They have the knowledge to, to get, take themselves forward. Uh, but we, it's important to really understand yourself on many levels and it's, it really does start with the employee understanding who they are, because I just don't think it's really fair to make the company figure all that out seriously.

Uh, that's why I say, Hey, send 'em to me and I'll get 'em straightened out. You know, and they'll come back confident knowing what they want, articulating what they want. It's, it's a whole different, it's like black and black and white, nine and day.

Russel Lolacher: Do you find it interesting that we work in these cultures that are all about being more productive, being more like, let's get more widgets out, let's make more money, and there's this group of people. That get super hyperfocused and are unbelievably productive if they're in the right environment, have the right conditions to what they need, and yet we still have this friction where it's, we want these things as an organization and yet we have these people that could beautifully help with all that.

But we wont, don't wanna do the things that we need to do to make them feel safe, supported, encouraged. I, I find that to be such, it's, hypocrisy might be the right word, but frustrating is the perfect word for that.

Shell Mendelson: Yeah, it is frustrating. Um, well, can I be honest with you? Steer clear, employee steer clear. That's not where you wanna apply. And their loss truly. So I'll just be very blunt about that. Um, employee companies that are not willing to explore how a neurodivergent person can add value in beyond anything they've ever imagined, weighs, um, then that employee, that person should not be working for them.

That should, that would be destroy them. Uh, it, I've seen it happen. People are on the, I talked, I just talked to two people yesterday who are so, uh, they're frustrated. Frustrated is, is the least of it, uh, because they're just so scared. I mean, there's a lot of fear out there right now, I think in, in the workplace because people are getting laid off all, you know.

You saw what happened in the federal government, all the people that were laid off there, and my own nephew who works for um, a green company is being threatened now because they're taking all the funding away. And 20 he walked in the door and 20% of the employees were gone. And so now he gets to go to work, wondering if it's gonna be him next.

Right. And this is just reality of what's going on now. So I think this kind of work is beyond important, that everybody should be really, uh, really understand what they want and need, what their must haves are in the workplace, and ask the right questions to. Really find the best fit for them. So employers who are not willing to accommodate in any way should be avoided by neurodivergent people.

That's, it's as clear as day. That's all there is to say about that really.

Russel Lolacher: So I wanna wrap it up with a question. I like to sort of give an idea a movement forward if somebody's listening to this specifically. Maybe it's an ADHD employee. Maybe it's an ADHD leader. What would you recommend they do tomorrow? Maybe they're in an organization, they're still trying to figure their fit.

What would you recommend they do tomorrow? Just that first little baby step to make sure it's working for them to make sure. What, how would you, what was the first step you'd coach them into starting to do tomorrow? If they just want to try to feel that inclusiveness, uh, be a part of an organization.

Shell Mendelson: Um, first look around your environment. Look at really, it always, you know, I hate to say this, Russell, it always comes back to knowing yourself, really being committed to figuring this stuff out and. Again, that's what I do. That's what I help people with, is to figure out your must haves and to, and, and then prioritize.

Prioritization is a big part of it, so prioritize. What are the top conditions you need? What kind of people do you wanna be working with? And you know, if, if it means. Can I work with this person versus this person? That's not always possible, but is there a possibility of doing that? Um, the kind of skills you wanna be using, like that is the first thing we tackle.

Like if you're not using the skills you love using, you're not going to actually love doing what you're doing. And very often people go through this process and they, they say, oh my gosh, I'm not using any of the schools skills. I love using, no wonder I'm miserable. Like it, it all starts to make sense why A leads to B leads to C of getting put in a PIP program, right?

Uh, it starts with what and with us, we have to really be engaged in what we're doing. That engagement factor is huge. So employers look for the engagement of the person, are they? Excited about what they're doing. Are they asking questions? If they're asking questions? Answer the questions in a nice way.

Don't make them feel like they shouldn't be asking questions. I've had many people that I work with say that it's not okay to ask questions where I work. You're shamed for asking questions. It, it happens over and over maybe, 'cause I asked you, ma, who knows? But it happens over and over and over again. Um, so there's so much that needs to happen on both ends, uh, for it really to start to gel, but having that awareness that there are questions that can be asked.

Um, so for the, the question you asked about, what is the first thing? Uh, just they would, I'll tell you one thing. They have what's called the career galaxy with them. If they're working with me, they'll just be able to check off whether or not it. It's a good fit for them. Is this the right thing for me?

And they can decide for themselves if they're gonna do something that's the wrong fit, which obviously isn't what they wanna do. Uh, but I don't know. It's kind of how do you feel in your environment? How does your environment actually, when you look around and you look at where you're sitting and you see the space that you have, and you see the equipment that you have to work with, and you see the people that you're working with.

Uh, and when you, how do you feel when you walk in the door? Uh, does a place make you feel miserable? People don't realize how much that impacts their ability to be engaged in what they're doing. Um, like even the colors of a place or the, is it, uh, concrete or is it carpeted? I know it sounds crazy, but the, we have sensitivities and these sensitivities are impacted.

Uh, not then They're different for everyone. Some people who care less about one thing than and prefer the other. So really it's ask yourself how does it feel? And I always say it's a feeling process overall. It sounds corny, but it really is. You know, are you feeling uncomfortable? Are you feeling excited?

Are you feeling, what is it about the situation? Um. That causes you to feel a certain way. So, and very often I have to say, people with who are neurodivergent, we don't think about how we feel very often. Well, thinking and feeling are two different things, but we don't feel into things very often. We tend to just blow it off.

And, and then it starts accumulating the negative negativity starts accumulating. So being more aware of how you feel is absolutely essential. Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: That is Shell Mendelson. She's an ADHD career coach and counselor and she's got a book I strongly recommend you check out, which is called Unlock Your Career Path, A Course For Neurodivergent Adults and Teens. Thank you so much for your time today. Shell,

Shell Mendelson: Thank you Russel. It was a pleasure.