Why Presence at Work Is Really About Awareness

Presence at work isn’t about performance — it’s about awareness.

In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel Lolacher talks with Ryan Carey, CEO of BetterOn, about what presence actually means in the workplace and why leaders often misunderstand it. They explore how self-awareness shapes trust, connection, and the employee experience — and why presence is a skill leaders can develop, not a personality trait.

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Transcript

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Russel Lolacher: And on the show today, we have Ryan Carey, and here is why he is awesome. He's the CEO behind BetterOn, a company dedicated to helping leaders and professionals build authentic presence on video, in person and across workplaces. He's previously worked at Google and YouTube and fun fact, an off ice official for the National Hockey League is a Canadian. I proud.

Anyway, uh, super happy to have you here, Ryan. How are you doing?

Ryan Carey: Good, good. Thanks for having me, Russel

Russel Lolacher: Uh, presence. It's, and I'm not talking the gifts that you give employees, like it's pizza lunch week. Like I'm not talking that we're talking real presence, how you show up virtually in person. This is gonna be exciting, interested to talk about this, but Ryan, you're not getting off the hook. I have to ask you the question I ask all my guests, which is, what is your best or worst employee experience?

Ryan Carey: thought a lot about this and. I guess I want to, I wanna tell the story of probably my most painful employee experience. When I worked for Google, I was, I had evolved into a sales role. I was at YouTube when Google bought us and then sort of evolved into the corporate chain of Google and had gone from, you know, a little bit more of a fun freewheeling selling the vision of YouTube.

To now being like, Hey man, that was five years ago. You gotta sell some stuff for it. So I was actually living in Australia. I had moved to Sydney with the company and was had my own kind of book of business and specifically it was working with the movie studios, which is super cool. It was a really cool life and job and all that stuff.

But one day I had to go pitch. What we were doing. I forget what exactly what I was pitching, but I, I think I went to go to the offices of like Paramount Studios in Sydney and it was like a like revolving door, all these different people selling their, their wares before the brass of the studio.

And it was in an actual like studio, like movie studio situation. So I remember walking in and I got my, like, I have like seven minutes or 10 minutes or something. I have my slides ready to go, and I'd never been in this venue before. And I, I get up in front of this group and sees it. It's all for the first time.

And I think I know what I'm talking about. I think I know what I wanna say, but all of a sudden, just like the pressure got a little bit hotter and the soundproofing of the space really threw me. And I'm up there. And then in this moment, as I begin my pitch selling advertising, this voice in my head is like, what are you doing with your life?

Like, is this what you wanna do? And I'm like, oh shit. Can they hear that? 'cause that's loud and little by little, I, I'm talking to them and I just slow down my talking. I start to freak the hell out and I'm like, what am I doing here? And it's like this moment of just like, of course it's utter panic, but it's like, oh, okay, well this is probably not the time to have this conversation with myself about what we're gonna really do.

That provides value and fulfills my purpose and all that stuff. But hey, it was loud and I was like, can I, I, I think I made up a technical issue. If I remember correctly, and I sort of like step away. I like kneeled down behind the podium. I'm like, okay, let's get through this. And I somehow got through it.

But as you could imagine with that soundproofing, the voice in my head and my heartbeat were coming like outta my ears and it was the worst moment, one of the worst moments, however. You know, I don't wanna, this is not why we're here, but I listened to that voice from that day on and here we are 15 years later doing something that I truly believe in.

Russel Lolacher: How long did it take you to actually take that voice seriously? Was it in the moment or was it like Good noted. See you in

Ryan Carey: Right? This me great question. It was good noted, but I would say like a couple. A couple months I was, I had, I had left and I didn't have a plan because when you have those oh shit moments, it's not like you get like a, well, here are the steps you take. You just kind of know there's a feeling you gotta leave behind and the feeling you have to chase.

And I just started trying to walk in that direction.

Russel Lolacher: And, and I'm sure many people get those, but I'm also curious about your responsibilities at the time. IE, did you have a mortgage? Did you have a partner? Did you have kids? Like some people can listen to that and some people just

Ryan Carey: I had, you know, I think I had, I had, I had had that, like it wasn't a, it wasn't a like new voice. It had been around,

Russel Lolacher: Hmm

Ryan Carey: but like everybody, I was good at excuses, but that was the thing. I had none of that. I didn't have a family, they didn't have a partner, didn't have a mortgage. I had the world in front of me and it took that to be like, dude, like if you're ever gonna jump and you're ever gonna listen, this is the moment.

Because those things, A, could be right around the corner. And some people fill their cups with them just for the excuses sake. And not that I was looking to do that, but life happens and I was like, you are alone. Which can feel real bad, but it's also a gift to be by yourself. So I had no excuses left and I had to start walking.

Russel Lolacher: It's such a, a, you, you see so many people online going, follow your bliss, follow your passion. I'm like, that's great if you're, you know, early twenties or you have no responsibilities or a mortgage or, it's easy to say, but it's conditional, it's contextual. I think we throw that language around a little too easily without respecting the situation a lot of people are in.

Uh, but it sounds good on a t-shirt, but, uh, yeah. Great, and, and, and fantastic that you sort of made that shift in your career at the time where you could or at least do it more easily than others can later on in life. Let's segue 'cause there's a not an easy segue from that story into our topic today.

So I'm just gonna go segue, uh, and just throw that out there. That's, that's my conjoining tissue into our topic today. Presence. Presence, how we show up, how we don't show up. I have to ask the question, really I like to always kick off with, which is defining what the hell we're even talking about, Ryan.

So could you first define what you even mean when it comes to presence specifically in the workplace?

Ryan Carey: yes. I can give it my best shot. Because it is, it, it is a deep well, but to touch on what you said before about, it's not the gifts you get like a pizza party at, at at work, I, there is a through line with how I see presents. I do think it is a gift. And I think how I see presence, it is our, one side of it is our sense of self, our sense of who we are, our sense of what we know, our sense of who we, who we want to be.

And it's also our sense of how we want to connect outside of ourselves. It starts with the internal connection, but then it's how do I want to connect to that person and that person and that person and that group, and that organization. And, you know, how do I want to connect to this product? How, how do I want to connect to this job?

Like, there are so many pieces of it, but that through line is, am I aware of my own gifts? Do I feel like I have gifts? And can I give them in how I show up? So that's kind of like the one side of I think, how I approach presence. And the other side is. Well, what's the answer? How do I show up? Is it, you know, do people get that gift?

Am I actually trying, you know, do I feel too vulnerable to give that gift in, in these, in these moments? Anyway, so that's kind of my kind of, you know, two minute drill on presence.

Russel Lolacher: What are we not understanding about presence? Because we're all very different people. We show up very differently. And then when somebody comes in and tells us and talks to us about presence, we may through our diversity lens, and worldviews have a different view of this. So what are we, what are we getting wrong that we may not prioritize this?

Ryan Carey: we are getting wrong. Uh, I think we're taking for granted how intimidating and threatening and challenging it can be to be authentically present. To feel authentically present. I think, you know. We're talking about the workplace, but we are not our jobs. We are not our titles. We are individuals.

And this work that, that we focus on really is about the person they benefit that oftentimes their company is paying for their development, but it's their choice to take what they learn and and kind of give it back. So I think that when I look at it from just the human development standpoint. You know, we approach presence by giving people a mirror to look into and make choices.

We don't tell them what's right or wrong. The, you know, who, who am I to tell someone else that their presence is wrong? It's up to them to, to really do that. But that work and that that activity for almost everyone, unless they've been doing this work, it's a really niche, unique thing. There. There's gonna be like a, oh.

That's me. Ugh. But then we also know that the desensitization process of that mirror, you know, like listening to your own voice, oh, I don't wanna hear my own voice. We know that nobody wants to stare at themselves all day, but we know that on the other side of that hump there is so much power. So that's kind of what we're pushing is like, get over that hump because the world needs more of that.

Russel Lolacher: I remember going to radio broadcasting school and they made you listen to your voice. Ad nauseum, like they made you record every bit and listen back to it over and over again, so you heard every Right, right. Or to the point where you could be critical because, and, and, and constructively critical as opposed to just, oh, I hear every mistake.

Oh, I hate the sound of my own voice. You need to, your point to be almost an other in that interaction is it is a. It is something, it's a product or a project you need to work on. You are not it, but you can figure out what the gap is between where you want to be versus where you are, and you can't do that until you remove yourself.

Ryan Carey: We. We like to say that we are practicing moments in our work. So, and, and I don't wanna get too deep into like our, our programming, but basically it's basically record yourself and watch yourself. That's that's what it's, and every time you record yourself is a different moment. And the whole point of it is when you step back and you watch yourself.

It's like, oh, that's me in a moment and you do it five minutes later. That's me in a different moment. You do it two days later. We're, we don't always, you know, we're having good days, bad days. Like we're like, so showing up in a moment takes that data that we can learn from ourselves. But to kind of, to, to, to, to push what you're saying, what we try to do is we like to give people a chance to name themselves.

So it's kind of like watch yourself and once you get over that, which doesn't take that long, it's like okay, you just tried to connect in a certain moment, maybe to a certain audience. Maybe, you know, maybe it's your boss, maybe it's your team, whatever, you know, what would you name that person or that, that persona.

And I think that that helps people be like, oh yeah, like that's, I'm not that version. 'cause every moment's different. So I think yeah, what you're saying, it's like that, that other, like developing a space to become that other is probably where, where the real power lives.

Russel Lolacher: Is this all different virtually versus in person?

Ryan Carey: Our work is all done virtually, but the effect carries anywhere people go. So it carries onto a stage. It carries to having a coffee or a beer with someone. It carries to a boardroom, and then of course carries to this space where everybody's on Zoom, you know, virtually. So the kind of internal aha, the herb, the upstairs aha too, that carries with people everywhere because there's a sense of awareness that they may not have had, and.

I think that's all we can ask for is a deepened sense of self-awareness that people can take with them in person online because they're not thinking about their voice or how they look. They're thinking about giving that gift to the other person out there.

Russel Lolacher: Why should I care? Ryan? I think that's, I, that's the big thing is like sort of, okay, great. Why do I need to have a presence? Why do I need to be self-aware of what my presence currently is? Why do I need to be able to audit my presence? Like what's the benefit to have this skillset, uh, in front of me to help my place in the

Ryan Carey: I would say, because nobody else cares. And it's your job as a leader to make them care. And I think that we often see people assume until they step in front of that mirror, they assume that everyone around them can. See what they feel or, or really feel what they're trying to give. And they also may think that their warts are visible and that people are gonna point at them and judge them, and therefore how they show up as average or below average.

And if we're talking about intentional presence, authentic presence. One of the realizations is that nobody gives a shit and you've gotta make them. So I'm not saying everybody has to care. You might be like, Hey, I'm gonna go through life and I don't need to focus on my presence because either, either I don't care, or I'm great.

And I'm great as I am, and I am not the one to, to call out either of those. But if you are someone who wants to connect. I feel like that work doesn't stop. You don't just graduate from knowing how to connect and then you connect. Even though there are great connectors out there, I think that in this changing world where, uh, attention spans are so small and people are so inside their own heads and incredibly lonely presence needs to be strong.

And I really think that it is a muscle that needs to be constantly toned. And taken care of. And it's not just like this natural, natural skill people are built with.

Russel Lolacher: I hear what you're saying that others don't care. But I will say they do make decisions and assumptions based on it. So it's not that they don't care about your presence. 'cause truthfully, we're all narcissists and we mostly just care about ourselves and how we show up. However, if your presence is lacking or overbearing or negative in any way, it can absolutely hurt your career.

It can absolutely hurt your opportunities. So as much as somebody might say, I don't care about my presence, you still have a presence. Even if you don't think you have one, even if you think you're great at it, if you don't do the work to like self-assess, you have no concept if your lack of self-awareness is shining through.

So I, I, I hear about the people don't care, but I also say. You need to be at least self-aware to at least understand how it might be helping and hurting you so you can lean in or lean

Ryan Carey: That too. Yes, I'm with you. Yeah, no, of course. I mean, I think, uh, we are always, yeah. I think that there, there's a stat I remember from YouTube back in the day that I think kind of translates to this. And the stat was that, you know, back then it was the audience, the global audience was say like 500 million people.

Now it's in, in, you know, multiple, multiple, multiple billions. But on the YouTube platform it was something only 10% of those millions. Had an account, had like actually were making videos and the rest were just watching. They were just audience members. And we are all great at being audience members. I mean, we're audience members and just giving our attention away all the time.

So to be in the, and to be in that 10% and you know, a try to show up and try to consider how we're being consumed. And how we're, how we're being seen. I just think it's such an opportunity for anybody who wants to get ahead. Not that you're gonna, you know, become famous or get promoted automatically, but that sense of awareness is going to help you

Russel Lolacher: Are you born with it or is it something that you cultivate? It's sort of like that. Leaders, are they born or made presence, born or made?

Ryan Carey: Made, made. But your life from a young age, I think impacts it too. I think how we grow up, what we're exposed to, how we may be encouraged or discouraged, affects how one would enter this work if they would even consider entering this work.

Russel Lolacher: So let's get a little self-reflective here. 'cause truthfully, presence has to start with how well you know yourself. It has to start with self-awareness. So you were talking about recording yourself and I mean, totally understand it from a virtual standpoint, but you can certainly do the same if you do a presentation at the front of the room.

You can record that, uh, by putting, setting up a little camera. I've done it. But it's just so much easier virtually these days and the way we work. What are we looking for? How can we become more aware of how we show up in a room or on camera without being overly self-critical?

Ryan Carey: I am thinking about just like the, the like top things that we see people practicing and I think how, what, so I joke with people, we could start a separate business and just call it eye contact because I think. In the virtual sense, if, you know, if we're all on video just starting with virtual and then moving into kind of being, being on, on stage, these little lenses we have on our, these little webcams we have, they are our, they are our bridge to other people, and we're so distracted and we've got so many other things going on in our minds and on our screens that most of us don't stop to look at that little green dot or where, wherever that lens is.

But I can tell you if you pause this podcast right now and record yourself telling the story like you'd normally do and then really override your brain to stare into the camera and compare the difference, you're, that, that is like an accelerated self-awareness right there, where it's like, oh, that's me connecting now.

So there, and there's a lot of other things when it comes to virtual, but as that, as that translates to being in person. This is where that reflective mirror piece comes in, because, you know, this, the, the, the exercise I just described, you know, can help you immediately with your next virtual meeting. But what it's really doing is connecting you to yourself and it, when you connect yourself, then you can, you know, there's more work to be done, but you wanna stay connected to yourself when you're on that stage, when you're in that, in that boardroom. 'cause it's the feeling. You need to be able to connect to that feeling to be able to give that out.

Russel Lolacher: It's funny, I come and so I do a lot of speaking gigs and I come and go when it comes to whether being in the moment or being outside the moment works. I hear what you're saying. I completely hear what you're saying, but I I, in the moment, you're connecting, you're seeing people, you're energy level, but I also have found benefit in sort of being.

Removed from my body and just sort of, and maybe that's overly doing the same presentations over and over again, so much that it's like a muscle memory or that I can tweak as I'm going. Because as we adjust, because the audience might be different, that those people might not be reacting in the way I want to.

What can I do on the fly? So I feel like almost that back to that other feeling, but doing it in real time. It can also be beneficial, but that can only happen if you have a really strong muscle in presenting and rehearsing and so forth over and over again. So I've seen benefit to both, but if you're just starting out, lean into the

Ryan Carey: Yeah. And I think what this is great because you have a style and you've built a style. And part of I think the, like, fun of what we're talking about is that everybody's presence can translate into their own style. And you know, that's part of the development. And when I think about what you're saying about, well, do you, do you, you know, is it in the moment?

Is it, do you, do you stand outside? I think having. In a perfect world, I don't even know if I have this, but having access to both and then understanding what does the moment call for? Because it's not all you you show up in, in that room. It may be a cold room, it a hot room, it may be rainy outside. Who knows?

And that's where the, you've gotta rise. And deliver and connect. And going back to this eye contact thing, I joke with people, you know, we want them to really, you know, have that absolute focus, not because we want them to stare for an hour and just be like, here I am looking in that camera. Like if you have a coffee with someone, you're not gonna stare into their eyes for an hour.

But knowing where it is to be able to come back to the moment, so you can go, you can flutter away, but to know how to flex and come back. Similar to being on a stage or being outside of a camera, in that moment, your body and your mind need to know like, okay, I've been out here for a couple seconds, couple minutes.

Now I'm gonna come back and land something and then I'm gonna float back away. You know, again, this is not a one size fits all, but just have having that, that style.

Russel Lolacher: Where does self-confidence fit into this? Where does self-regulation fit into this? Especially when it comes to consistency?

Ryan Carey: Man, that's such a good question. And there are two very different things I think. I think...

All I can tell you is that from, from, from our side of the fence, putting in the time doing hard, this kind of hard work builds confidence and, and again, not a one size fits all but. If you challenge yourself, like, you know, we, and how I approach presence, we give a container, we give a practice space.

We don't do the work. We try to provide, we try to have this like fitness gymnasium function where you as, as, as the human, you get to practice flexing. And it can be as big or as small or as time consuming, or as little as you, as you want to invest into it. But we find that there's a, it doesn't take a lot to have that confidence light bulb come on, which makes people hungrier be like, well man, I feel good.

I want to keep feeling good. The self-regulation side, I mean, I guess it is very similar. This is hard draining work. If anybody's ever successfully or unsuccessfully gone to therapy or worked with a counselor or a coach. You know, talking about yourself is exhausting. People don't like it. 'Cause it takes work.

This is, this is similar where you are pulling from most people, pulling from, uh, uh, a place that they're not used to making time, that they're not used to making for this purpose. That people are exhausted. But the point is not burnout. The point is to realize, again, back to your style. You know, what is it?

How much time do you have to make for this practice? Is it 15 minutes a day? Is it an hour a day? Is it two hours every, every, every month? I just think that as long as it is seen as a repetitive practice and not a one stop shop people can hopefully figure out how to regulate. Because the goal is definitely not to, you know, burn, burn people out.

Russel Lolacher: We talked about some physical things we can do. I mean, eye contact is very physical. What else? I'm trying to think of this in two areas. Uh, phy, physical and mindset. So mindset, confidence, and that builds with muscle memory of doing things over and over again. Physical eye contact. What else should we be looking for from a present standpoint?

Is it like, I'm thinking posture, I'm thinking, uh, like what do people see when they look at you? What are you, what? So as a self-awareness person, what am I picking apart? Just gimme a few.

Ryan Carey: I think on, on the mindset side, it's just getting outta bed. It's just doing it. It's just like, ugh. I don't want it to, you know, I don't feel like it, just do it on, on, on the other side. It's a very physical thing and it's funny that I say as we both sit, we're both I'm, are you, are you sitting down?

Russel Lolacher: I am, I'm a, yeah.

Ryan Carey: me. No meal yet. We're both, you know, we're both, we're both sitting down and presence is about energy. And if you want to give somebody else your energy, so they wake up or they tune in, or they're like, I'm gonna give this person my attention.

Like, we're talking about commanding attention in certain moments, you know, a lot of us. When we're in the virtual world, we're just sitting down, our butts are in the chairs, our feet are on the ground ground. All of our energy is just going to the earth and it's not coming through. So that in itself might help people realize like, oh, there's a lot more I can do to come through more.

And if you've got a standing desk, that's a start. But just like doing warmups, like, you know, if, if, if we think about the stage. Some people will do jumping jacks. I've seen Mick Jagger has like a trampoline. He will jump on for 10 minutes before he goes out to like, you know, blow people's minds. You people out there are no different than Mick Jagger.

There's no reason that you cannot take this work and your presence that seriously, at least in a practice perspective, to learn what happens when you jack up your energy. Does it give the audience more? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Well, if it does, too bad. It's not about you, it's about them. So it's really about learning.

What can you do to kind of rise, to come, to come through more. So that's just we, and we push people like warm up. Like, learn about what is your pre-work need to be before a moment. And we don't always have that time built in, but if, you know, if, if we're zooming out, it's like there's no reason that people cannot take that into consideration.

Somebody recently said to me when they were kind of reflecting back on their work, working with us, he used the term windup like a, like a baseball pitcher. He's like, I gotta work on my windup. And I'm like, that's so good. Because it's like, you know, you don't just throw a hundred, a hundred mile an hour fastball.

It's like there's a whole routine before you come through. And I just, if there's one thing I could leave with the listeners, it's like, give people permission to just think about theirs and maybe start, start to practice theirs. Other stuff. So I'm kind of going down a different road here. Other stuff about what, what people see, what to take into account.

Our presence is not just our face and our body. Our presence is what's happening behind us too. And I think a question to ask ourselves is, you know, is my frame giving to the audience or is it draining them? And in the early days of COVID we were one of the few fortunate companies that were very relevant.

Because all of a sudden everyone's on camera and companies are like, oh man, like, can you, can you help us get our, get our people ready for this? And people had like, their, their laundry hanging on a door behind them and it's like, Hey, let's audit our background before turning your camera on. So it's little things like that that it's just like.

Realize that the frame, the box, the rectangle that people are consuming you in is not just you in this deep sense of connection to yourself. It's actually just the, the visual that you're putting through.

Russel Lolacher: Presence is an interesting thing because as much, it's like communication, like it involves not just us. Uh, presence. Doesn't matter if you're sitting here by yourself in a room. You, it's all about you interacting with others. So I asked the question. I bring that up because our teams are who we interact with the most.

These are the people that we spend every day with at work, report to us colleagues, direct reports, however you wanna look at it. How does our presence influence how our team feels? Whether in the room on a, uh, on a video call, like as a leader, as someone that they're relying on day to day, how can a, how can presence negatively or positively impact that relationship?

Ryan Carey: I think it's everything. And I'm self, I'm selfishly saying that, but it really is because. Being in a position of leadership is a privilege, and you are by typically by default, like you are a trusted figure that people are required in, at least in like a managerial position, are required to. Listen to, try to listen to, like, to, to, so I think that bridge to the team, the, to the organization should not be taken for granted.

And I think that showing up unaware, showing up carelessly, showing up without intention runs the risk. Of leaving them with a poor leadership experience and not that, you know, again, I don't know what the, what, like, you know, if this is a numerical thing, what's the average across the board? I have no idea.

But there's obviously good leaders, ineffective leaders, all that stuff. So I think bringing, like going back to what you said, like, like our presence is, is always there, but. Actually trying and putting in effort to your own presence is this difference between, you know, probably like a, like a negative, risking a negative impact versus a positive.

Now I think it's much harder to have a positive presence and it, that's why it does take work. But if a leader can create access. Can create an openness, can create trust, maybe create inspiration, like can create a sense of themselves that there is, that is authentic to them. That not only motivates their people, but kind of ask them, man, how do I get that presence?

I think that's, that's the positive side of, of this.

Russel Lolacher: You made me start to think about that presence also shouldn't be binary. Like, it's like I have presence now, now I don't have presence. Oh, wait, now I have presence again. Like it's not a light switch. And, and the reason I, I I, I'm thinking of this is because in a team environment, leadership and adaptability are so key.

So what are we looking for to adjust? Because some situations demand a certain type of presence and other situations demand a different type of presence.

Ryan Carey: I mean, thank you for saying this, because sometimes presence is just shutting up and listening and observing deeply and coming back a day or a week later with, you know, a, you know, a more like a speaking presence, a more active presence. Yeah, I, I think that. It is a spectrum, and I guess you had me thinking about my own, like myself personally.

I love to, you know, engage. I love to entertain. I love to not talk, but I love to kind of create lively, engaging moments within groups of people. I'd love to try and be funny. Uh, maybe, I don't know, maybe it doesn't always work, but I love I, but I love to try on the other side of it, I think over time I've learned, and again, I think I, how I was as a, as a kid, I was an only child and so in that sense there's kind of two roads.

One, in order to like engage with others, you've gotta offer something to be welcomed in. So that's where I was like, we gotta try and be funny. You gotta try and feel something on the other side. You kind of are a default observer 'cause you're not in a group all the time. So I think these two roads have led me to now know that I like to listen and shut up.

Probably more so than, you know, being able to engage or turn, try to turn people's light bulbs on. So I think it is a spectrum for anyone out there that you know. Maybe it's that your sense of presence is constant, but what you do in those moments varies. 'cause it's not always gonna be like big, loud, animated, you know?

It may be the opposite.

Russel Lolacher: How do you know it's

Ryan Carey: Ooh.

Russel Lolacher: So to your point, you're coming in my curiosity presence. Okay. Now I am an asshole presence. Wait, now I am a supportive presence. Now I'm like, it's. It's to be adaptable, we have to adjust. But we also may not know if that's the right adjustment or not. So what are we

Ryan Carey: I mean, what you're saying, this is, this is where I want to take our business like this. This is what, this is what, what really matters. And I think what you're saying is so, is so internal to someone's self-awareness. You know, some people walk the earth and. Don't pick up on cues very well or often, and they're getting feedback and they're being told in so many ways that maybe what they're doing or who they're being is not good or not welcome.

And again, every situation's different but in, but in the workspace, you know, part of this, part of this work that we're talking about, it lets people ask the question. What do I want to get back? Like we sort of get to decide what is the code we want to be deciphering from people to know that our presence works.

And I don't think it's as simple as like, you know, I got a smile, or I got applause, or I got high marks, or I got a promotion. You know, I think it's so ingrained in one, the individual. Being confident in their own presence no matter what they get back. 'cause while we're giving, we're not doing the work just for that audience.

We're giving to them, we're doing the work for ourselves. So it's sticking with the confidence of the foundation of your own presence, but then also having a level of curiosity and even vulnerability to open up that side of yourself to say, how's this going? I like, am I getting something back? And yeah, I could talk about this forever, but I, I think like it really is a deep thing within ourselves.

Russel Lolacher: Do you bring your team in for that though? Because I mean, as much as self-awareness is important, at the end of the day, it's not the impact on as much on you, it's also on the team. So when we're looking like, we can say, this is totally working for me. And meanwhile, you know, cubicle number three is like, I've hated you for two years.

It's completely not working for me. So you can't also work in a bubble.

Ryan Carey: If you are a leader, yes. If you are a leader, you should think about opening yourself up to the level you just described, because if you want to get better as a person and also as a leader, you want to. Not only be vulnerable, but share that vulnerability. I think that that's something that connects everyone.

And not to jump back to YouTube, but if you look at what works on works on YouTube and it always has, it's this vulnerability. Like it's a scary thing to feel. And as an audience member that draws us in, we wanna feel that vulnerability. But I think the other thing about vulnerability is that vulnerability does.

It doesn't kill us. It, we might think it will, but the more you do it, you realize, oh, I'm, I'm not gonna die by opening up myself to what could feel weak when it's actually a show of strength and what you're saying, asking a team, asking the org like, Hey, what are you getting from, from my presence? Like, is this bullshit?

Like, is this real? Like, I want to know. That's kind of the, the holy grail of this. Is having the, again, the privilege of a direct connection to an audience who can feed it back to you.

Russel Lolacher: How do you scale this? Because you coach individuals, you coach individuals to have presence to teams. Now we're talking organizations who may have a better need to maybe embed the importance of presence. I'm thinking professional development. I'm thinking performance reviews. How do you bring this into a culture versus a team?

Ryan Carey: I would love to I would love to eat that elephant in terms of what we have learned, to be honest, because let, let's say that everyone's cool with vulnerability. Let's say that everyone is, you know. That watching themselves and doing this work that I'm talking about looking in the mirror is more accessible to them.

I think the power of this, and this is kind of, you know, all of our work is done via asynchronous video. So we don't do any live one-to-one. You know, coaching, we do it asynchronously, meaning that somebody, a leader by themselves on their own time, records themselves and watches themselves on our software, and then it gets submitted to whoever they're working with on our team.

So for one, it gives them the total power, not they get to choose who, who sees them, which is a learning in itself. The other is that it allows me and my team to work with. You know, a hundred people plus simultaneously to kind of give them tips and feedback on how they can develop their presence further.

But they don't need us. Like we are, we are a luxury item for a lot of companies. You know, they don't need us to say, here's what I'm getting from what you're seeing about yourself. That I think if we can grow these leaders to a space where they're like, oh, I am. Confident enough in this vulnerability, I'm just going to be using asynchronous video, which is available everywhere.

I mean, there are tools falling from the sky that, you know, on how to, on using video. You can, you can use YouTube. There's a tool called Loom. I dunno if anybody knows about that. Like, you know, like recording yourself on video is accessible to everybody. But it's the question of what do you do with that?

And I think that the right organization with the right culture and the right leadership is gonna say, we're gonna use video to safely create a space for people to not just practice, but learn about how they show up. And I think you can do it collaboratively. Because what we're talking about isn't just a leadership thing.

I think everybody could benefit from this opportunity of watching yourself and looking in, looking into that mirror. So I think the biggest barrier to companies and organizations adapting a beha, a, a, a behavioral change like this is. Is fear and threat and not wanting to watch yourself.

Russel Lolacher: Well, and how many people rise to the top of their organizations based on the delivery of a product or a project. And it wasn't about their presentation skills. It wasn't about them showing up and being a human. It was that they did the thing that their boss above them wanted them to do and they did it well.

So they kept moving up. Moving up. So we in organizations are now looking to our executive, our C-Suite, to model that presence. When they may be ill-equipped, ill-advised on how to do that and, and then we're making judgment calls on them as individuals, as leaders, as culture representatives. And if we don't take presence a little bit more seriously, I think that just hurts an organization.

Ryan Carey: I agree with you and every organization is totally different and is made up of totally different humans and. As you're saying this, I'm thinking about kind of the like generational differences of this work. You know, we're living in a time where what we're talking about and the way we approach this is fairly new, and so if you've risen through the ranks and you're in a senior level, you know, you probably didn't sit around watching yourself on video to improve your presence.

You probably have a, you know, you have a presence that's for sure. But it's a question of, you know, what is it? How, how did we get you there? Have you thought about developing others, others' presences? You know, how does that, how does that look? So I was gonna, gonna just chalk it up to a generational thing.

But at the same time, we've worked with all ages of leaders. I mean, for the most part. And I've got people that are, that are, you know, closing in on re retirement and they're always looking to learn. They're always looking to learn about themselves. They're always trying to be better. And that's not something that just started for them.

So I think that that's the piece that, that will help.

Russel Lolacher: But you do bring up a, a solid point here around diversity and that, and whether it's generational, but it could also be cultural. A lot of people may not feel completely comfortable being on camera just based on their own geopolitical, whatever have you. How do you, how do you work with them when they're, they still, they're ambitious.

They also wanna move up in the organization. They also want to build. May not be leaders, but they still wanna network. They still wanna build relationships. So there is presence needing to, uh, needing to be fixed. But again, we may define presence differently depending on that diversity. How do you approach that?

Ryan Carey: The thing, this is where for us, safety and privacy is our number one thing, and to me, I would believe that anybody who's interested. In developing their presence, we will offer them that quiet alone, private, safe space. As long as they have a camera, we can help them. And what they do with that is totally up to them.

So that sense of self and understanding or like learning from yourself, learning what you're capable of. I think anybody. Who's willing can take advantage of that. Now, how they, again, how they bring that to their work, how they bring that to their organiz organization is, is up to them. But I think I've really made a life commitment of trying to help anybody find that puzzle piece.

So if anybody out there identifies with the, like, yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm, I may not be your. Standard presence development case. It's like I wanna talk to that person and be like, let's, let's find a way for you.

Russel Lolacher: I think the challenge on both sides, whether it's the coaching piece or it's the, I need to be better piece, is leaning into assumptions. Uh, 'cause you kind of pointed out was that we assume older generations are gonna suck at this. We assume younger generations know how to do this because they're on camera all the time.

Or we assume we're good or, you know, there, there, there are a lot of assumptions I think could be the biggest roadblock to us connecting. When we're so in our own box of these cliches, of these stereotypes that just get in our way.

Ryan Carey: It's assumptions are so dangerous with what we're talking about, not only from what you're saying, but our assumptions about ourselves. Or even, even worse, our firm beliefs about ourselves, which is why this is so terrifying to some people, because they don't wanna be proven wrong. Like that's a, that's a hard pill to swallow when, you know, people bring their self beliefs and, you know, we can all navigate life and work and you know, Bob and weave, but it's like, well, you're staring at yourself.

You're looking at the truth, man. It's like, okay. And that can be, that's why I don't take any of this lightly because you know, it's a gift to be shown the truth. But part of the truth is realizing that maybe something you thought about yourself isn't true, or maybe who you thought you were or wasn't true.

And here's a chance to be yourself. Which I kind of joke, it's such that word gets thrown around. Ah, just be yourself. Ah, just, just go out there and be yourself. It's like that is such a heavy task that most humans don't even find the answer to by the end of their lives. That it's like, you know, don't, don't take it lightly.

Russel Lolacher: And you also, that presence can give you a reputation. Like you could be, people might think you're tough to work with in a larger culture and you're like, I'm not. I'm super easy. So understand what you're putting out into the world to, you know, navigate that and go. Your perception of you is not what's showing up in the world and not how you're influencing culture around you.

So maybe again, we're back to that self-awareness piece. You really need to better understand

Ryan Carey: One of the hardest things we face is when we get, and it doesn't happen very often, but every now and then we'll get a client. Who's like, Hey, this person needs help.

Russel Lolacher: Hmm.

Ryan Carey: it's like, this person doesn't know how to shut up in meetings, this person, yada, yada. And I'm like, okay, this is, this is not the, this is not the on-ramp we usually have here, but is that person willing?

And that's what it comes down to. Like we can only work with the willing. So if that person is willing to look and try, great. But you can't force someone into like, you know, jail or something like that to try and change their behavior. Like they've gotta come in with open eyes.

Russel Lolacher: So anybody listening to this that wants to start going down the path of better understanding their presence? They just want to dip their toe in the pool. They just wanna, they're not looking to spend tons of money. They're not looking to finish programs quite yet. They just wanna start the path of even understanding what they're even talking about.

What would you recommend for them?

Ryan Carey: So use the power of the camera. You know, as we talked about, presence is not just about video, not just about being on a stage, but having access to a recording device to use for this purpose is a pretty powerful thing. So I would encourage anyone to just. You know, mindfully get outta bed and hit, hit record and practice and try something and realize that while it's just you in this practice space, there's so much power in what you can give off.

And there's so much power in learning about that because you have the power to improve it. We have a, a, a recording tool that's accessible for free to anybody. So if anybody wants to use our platform to practice for free, that's an op an option too. I would just say find a camera, you know, use it for a minute, one day, five minutes the next week, and just keep on flexing the muscle.

Russel Lolacher: That is Ryan Carey. He's the CEO behind BetterOn, a company dedicated to helping leaders and professionals build authentic presence. Thank you so much for being here.

Ryan Carey: Betcha. Thanks for having me.