Why DEI Gets Stuck in the Middle

Most organizations talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion at the executive level — or delegate it to HR.

But that’s not where DEI actually succeeds or fails.

In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel speaks with Jonathan Njus about why middle managers are the real linchpin of DEI efforts — and why so many initiatives stall once they reach the middle of the organization.

Jonathan breaks down:

• Why middle managers quietly shape hiring, performance reviews, and team culture
• How DEI often fails because of language, not values
• Why psychological safety must extend to leaders, not just employees
• What inclusion looks like in everyday decisions, not training sessions
• How reframing DEI as building the best team changes engagement entirely

This conversation moves beyond acronyms and politics and focuses on what actually drives inclusion at work: how leaders show up, how teams experience fairness, and how relationships either build trust — or quietly erode it.

If you’re a middle manager, lead middle managers, or want culture change that actually sticks, this episode is for you.

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Transcript

Russel Lolacher: And on the show today we have Jonathan Njus, and here is why he is awesome. He's the program lead for expanding equity and director of Family Economic Security at the WK Kellogg Foundation. He's responsible for the strategic direction and day-to-day management of the foundation's multi-million dollar multi-year initiative, uh, that has grown to 200 plus companies and 1000 plus leaders.

That's a lot of pluses who are actively engaged in making their organizations more diverse. Equitable and inclusive. I'm being very slow on that, considering the focus on DEI in the workplace these days. This is gonna be an interesting conversation. Hello, Jonathan.

Jonathan Njus: Hello Russel.

Russel Lolacher: Middle Managers, DEI. Important area to focus on within organizations. 'cause we seem to focus on HR and we seem to focus on executives. So I'm super curious about this from a relationship standpoint. But before we get into any of that, Jonathan, we have to start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, what's your best or worst employee experience, sir?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I love this question. It was great to think back on it. Uh, and I'm gonna go with the best. Um, and you know, like you noted in earlier episodes, it's earlier on in my career. Um, and so it was one of my first jobs coming outta college. Um, a lit just a little bit about me. I grew up in Michigan. I still live in Michigan, in a rural part of Michigan.

Um, predominantly, um, predominantly white, um, kind of middle class, um, upbringing. My first job was actually in Washington dc I worked for, uh, the National Council of Rasa, which is a Hispanic civil rights organization. Um, and one of my memories from that time is being in a staff meeting. Looking around and being the only, this is the first time I'd ever experienced that in my life.

Um, but despite that fact, I felt so seen. Um, and, um, and appreciated for who I was, you know, Jonathan, um, in a way that I hadn't really felt before, um, in, in my life. And it was a, it was an amazing feeling. And you feel part, like you, you throw this, organizations, throw this out to really feel like you're a part of a family.

Um, and yeah, I've got lifelong friends from that time. Um, best man of my wedding. We shared an office together. And the other part of that was I had the best boss. Um, and shout out to Sonya Perez, um, uh, wherever she is. I mean, so sharp, so kind, just that, you know, that's such a perfect combination of a leader and I felt like she just really cared about me as a person.

Um, first and foremost and just invested a lot of time in me. Um, made me a much better writer, which I've been able to take throughout my career, and just really learned a lot for her, from her and how she showed up just so consistent, so professional, and obviously very, uh, effective in her job. So, um, that would be my best experience so far.

Russel Lolacher: So that sounds amazing and I like that you put so far, you're hopeful. I appreciate that. And to your point when I ask this question, it's always from decades ago because it's really been that impactful piece that people have taken with them throughout their careers, whether it's still within corporate or it's entrepreneurship, but it was sort of set the standard, good or bad.

Sadly, it's usually bad. I wanna go back a bit to what you said about being sort of this. Other, within the organization a bit, which is different usually for white males, uh, not the norm. Um, having said that, I'm kind of curious besides the importance of that touchstone of your direct boss, the direct person you relate to, that's, which is so important in all those inclusive feeling, belonging.

What was it that the larger organization you felt did to make you feel. That you for quote unquote, lack of a better term family. 'cause as much as we all hate that now, um, that, that it made you feel that, which is obviously the, the good thing.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I, I think there was a, the, there were just a lot of, um, gatherings and events and, um, there was always thing, you know, we were doing things outside of the workplace. You know, we had, you know, sports clubs and um, you know, celebrating birthdays and, um, and, um, and. Anniversaries and those type of things, like that type of, um, affect was that, was the, that was the atmosphere that was in the env, that was the environment, you know, so, you know, the food, the music and everything else.

Like it had that type of feel. Um, and the other thing is it wasn't about. Me as a worker is, it was about me as a person. I just felt that that pervaded the organization. And so that's what I said. You know what I said earlier, like, I felt like I was really seen like that. 'cause they're, they're seeing me as like, as a person kind of beyond the identity.

And that was the beauty of it. Just to realize like, okay, different race, different gender, et cetera, et cetera. The commonality I had with different people in different ways and also the, you know, obviously the differences. Um, I think that was what made it such a wonderful culture to be a part of.

Russel Lolacher: It feels more like community. I would almost say even though like family kind of gets that, that well. Family doesn't fire people. It's, but the community does feel a little bit more the humanity of it as well. Um, yeah. Anyway, I just, I, I like the.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah. And I wonder, you know, like looking back, I was so early in my career, obviously I wasn't managing anyone. I do wonder if the, like what type of training Sonya got? Um, you know, like, and like those type of conversations. I mean, on some, on some level it might be natural, but on another level it might be, I would think it'd be planned knowing, you know, I've been in a management position since then where I'm sure we're gonna talk more about that.

But I'm curious like. How did they create that culture as managers, because that's, and leaders, 'cause that's such an important part of it.

Russel Lolacher: Well, let's dig a little deeper into understanding all this inclusivity and diversity we're talking about. So, I mean, I understand the, the crazy amounts of focus on this in the larger conversation these days globally, not just the us. What, let's define it first, like what is DEI to you as it pertains to the workplace?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I've done a lot of, um, you know, thinking about this and I, I, you know, where I would start is, um, I think, you know, obviously there's been a lot of pushback, um, on DEI recently. But I, I, I think there's an opening opportunity to actually define what it is. We tend to throw out acronyms in the, in the workplace and larger society.

And, you know, you and I were talking earlier, we don't define them. So for me, you know, diversity is about opportunity. Um, it's making sure that, you know. Everyone has a fair shot at a good job, you know, in the company, um, coming, you know, getting in or moving up. Um, and when I say everyone, you know, I mean everyone.

So. I think that's, we've gotta, it's a broader definition of diversity and I think you can, every company can take a look at picture of its, you know, of its organization and see who's in and who's out. You know, there are holes and gaps in every organization. Could be by race, could be by gender. Let's bring in other types of diversity.

Could be disability. That's something we do not talk enough about, you know, the lack of diversity on, on in terms of, um, workers with, with disabilities, you know, veterans. Another one that, what about first generation workers? When you talk about first generation workers that go to college, what about first generation, first generation workers that get, you know, get into these organizations and these companies?

You know, that's a whole nother realm. Um, so I think that, and that's gonna vary by organization. So diversity is about opportunity. Equity to me is about fairness. So you treating everybody fairly. During the hiring process. During the promotion process, but also when you're on a team, you know, everyone's treated fairly and equally.

And then inclusion is about respect. You know, how are we respecting everyone, you know, no matter their identity, no matter their background experience. And these, these va, these values, you know, opportunity, fairness, and respect. These are. I was gonna say American values, but I'm talking with a Canadian. I think these are like human values.

And so I think we've gotta have that conversation. And really, in a lot of ways, these are values a lot of organizations want, you know, this is who we are, this is who we're gonna be. So, um, that's how I define, um, diversity, equity, inclusion.

Russel Lolacher: It's funny you say that because I mean, they sound great. These are great things. These are things that we absolutely should do, and yet, and yet everybody's fighting back at. The whole idea of the DEI notion. It's this thing that's taken on this, like the term woke, right? It started with the best of intentions.

It started with the idea of being awake and noticing all the things that are not working and the things we really need to address, and this thing has shifted. Politically, all these other things, and DEI has kind of gone in that path as well. Why do people have such a problem with this thing?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I mean, you know, we've all been reading the headlines like.

Russel Lolacher: True.

Jonathan Njus: These companies are pulling back, those companies are doubling down. I think the full story is, is a lot more complex, um, than the one we're reading in the news. Um, I, you know, I'm sure some companies are abandoning it, but I think most companies are evolving it.

They're really deepening their efforts. And so what, what we see with expanding equity, you know, we have a, a network of almost 300 companies now, over a thousand leaders that are, um, that are working to make their organizations, um, um, more, to have more opportunity and fairness and respect. Um, you know, we had our largest cohort in, um, in February, you know, 50 co 50 organizations, over a hundred leaders.

So. There's that story that you know isn't being told necessarily. But yeah, I mean there's some reframing. I would talk, I'd say that more than retreating. Um, and, you know, quite honestly, this work needs needed to evolve. And it was in the process of evolving. So, you know, I just talked about like how we defining DEI, we've gotta speak in a language that.

People understand both inside our organizations and outside our organizations. So I think this is type, kind of a natural development. Um, and what we found in our network is that, you know, there was evolving before, you know, the new administration and the pushback and everything else. We did a retrospective on the first three years of the program and we discovered that the vast majority were anchoring on inclusion and belonging.

Um. Not, uh, almost a hundred percent had implemented at least one initiative in that space. Um, so we had, we were seeing these trends. Before the political change, you know, in, in the us I think the other thing that's happening is that organizations are focusing on the front line, they're focusing on the people.

So you'll hear, I dunno if you've seen that or heard that, but it's like, you know, people first, you know, it's about our people. Um, and I think there's a lot of opportunity in that focus. I don't think that's necessarily. I mean probably in part it is a reframing, but I think there's a lot of opportunity there.

What we found is like the more companies are talking with their frontline, for example, the more that they're learning about what their needs are. For example, um, you know, not necessarily higher pay, although that's always welcome. But I need more paid leave or I need more flexible scheduling, or whatever else.

So I think that connection, um, with the frontline and, and as we know, there's a huge gap between the frontline workers and senior leaders in terms of inclusion. And so, you know, a lot more inclusive leadership programs, which I'm sure we'll talk about, um, at some point. The last two things I'll say, I think we're seeing more increased collaboration across organizations.

That needed to happen too. You know, it, it's not a side project, it's not an HR project. How is it integrated across? 'cause everyone has a hand in making the organization more diverse and equitable and inclusive. So a lot more conversation with legal and communications and procurement investment and you know, so I think embedding that, integrating that across the organization, then embedding it in, you know, to the strategy.

Because at the end of the day. Why people are continuing to do this is because it's good for business. I mean, there's been every opportunity to like pull back and get out, but a lot of these organizations are, keep doing it because it's good for their bottom line, it's good for their workforce. It helps with retention and everything else.

So that's, that's what we've seen in our network.

Russel Lolacher: So I'm gonna kick the tires a bit here, Jonathan, just to, so one of the things I hear a lot when I, I talk to those of Brown, DEI, is two things, and you brought up one of them now. One is, it shouldn't be a separate program, it should be part of the DNA.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: Except you're a program lead for expanding equity. So technically you are part of a program that is separate, that is focused on this.

Also, DEI should not be talked about by piece people of color. Like it should not be only people of color. 'cause that's what it seems to be is like, oh, you're the person of color. You should be leading this 'cause you are the quote unquote face of it. I love the fact that, well, you are not for those that are not watching this on video.

Um, so it's, I see that sort of, you're also a program, but it's also really nice that you're not the go-to executive points, a finger to, because they're not imaginative enough or they're not inclusive enough themselves that they're feeling like it's somebody else's problem, not, you know, the, what they see in the mirror.

So how do you reconcile or how do you, uh, think that way?

Jonathan Njus: I mean, I, that's an extremely important point. We saw that in our research. When you look back on the first year, three years of the program, senior leader, you know, buy-in and, um, commitment and all the things is extremely important. I think that's very important now, um, especially, you know, when you start.

When it becomes more headwinds versus tailwinds, you know, that's where you really need, you know, leadership to step in and step up. So, I, I just, I just wanna note that I think that's extremely important. Um, you know, it takes time to integrate this type of work across, you know, an organization. It's taken us time as the Kellogg Foundation, you know, I mean, we've been on a journey for a while.

Focused on equity and diversity and inclusion. And so, you know, just as an example. And so it's pervaded our programming and our operations and everything else. Just to give an example, I mean this, this program, expanding equity started in the investments office as a pilot project. So this wasn't like a side project and it was really, it started as a learning journey.

Because we're all on this journey of trying to, you know. Like figure out how to relate better. I mean, I love the title of your podcast, how we relate better with people that we work with, you know, and people that we, and the, the thing is the workplace is the one place where we're actually interacting with people who are different from us.

And so it's not like some people haven't had that opportunity. I fortunately have, I talked about the being of this podcast. But like, how do you do that effectively? And so like that takes some time, you know, to figure out. And so it really started there, um, you know, in an organization. And that's where I think, you know, you talked about, okay, me as a white man and a middle manager, I'll add that to the, to the, to the definition, you know.

There have to like having, I think this is an opening opportunity, like how can organizations have open, honest conversations with middle management starting from scratch on on some level where it's not like, here's something else to do, but why is this good for the business? Why is this good for me? And then like, what do I think, what do I recommend?

Et cetera, et cetera. And so I think, you know, bringing in middle management. A lot of whom are white men or into the conversation, into the work on the front end?

Russel Lolacher: Why are middle managers to getting to our, to our topic today? Why do you think middle managers are uniquely positioned to impact DEI Outcomes, good or bad?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, you know, middle managers are really, um, central, um, to, to really the success of, um, of. Creating a more diverse and inclusive organization. I mean, I think they're just, they're, they're a linchpin in a lot of ways, you know, I mean, just, I know you love definitions, so let's start with a definition.

Um, you know, middle manager, somebody who manages, people who sit below them, and managers who sit, you know, above them, they're in the, they're really in the middle of the organization, leading teams and projects. They're in the middle of it all. I mean, and so I think they're really key for a few reasons.

You know? So I think number one would be they're engaged in the hiring process. Um, you know, they're, um, it, it's usually a team that does it, but if they're gonna be on my team, I'm gonna be involved in that, in that, um, hiring process in some way. So. How are we sourcing candidates? What are, you know, what are, um, you know, going beyond my LinkedIn or everyone's LinkedIn, what are the search firms that are helping you know, out with that so that we make sure that we get a diverse candidate pool on the front end of the process as they go through, you know, the hiring process. gonna be interviewing, et cetera, et cetera. So like the hiring process, I think is number one. Number two, um, would be, uh, you know, performance reviews. So how you're doing performance reviews. I mean, is this, are you being objective? Are you being fair? You know, is this about, um. Your performance and not your personality.

That can be an issue sometimes, you know, that's where bias creeps into some of this work. So how are you being fair there? That's gonna be really have a tremendous impact on who moves up and who doesn't. So performance reviews. The last thing I would say is Sher, we'll spend some more time here. I mean, the culture of your team.

I mean, this is maybe one of the most important relationships you have in your organization, whether you're happy there or not, is the relationship you have with your boss. And so you're gonna dictate what type of culture that team has. Like do you feel, as I was saying earlier, do you feel seen? Do you feel heard?

Do you feel welcomed and respected? That's gonna dictate, excuse me, whether. You stay or whether you leave and maybe even whether you come. 'cause you, you know, they hear about organizations, um, kind of what they are in terms of culture. So I just feel like middle managers are in the, in the middle of it all.

And so that behooves. Leaders. Leaders that are focused on diversity or equity inclusion or, or you know, how to bring that about in their organization to really be talking and working with middle managers early on in the process and throughout the process.

Russel Lolacher: What do you mean when you mean success? So at the beginning you were talking about the idea was that we will engage middle managers to be successful in DEI. Great. What? Is success in DEI.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, that's good. That's a really good question. Um, I, I, I'm really, I mean, um, professionally and personally really interested in this conversation about, um, how leaders show up.

Russel Lolacher: Hmm.

Jonathan Njus: Organizations. Um, the, one of the great things that we've done at our organization at the Kellogg Foundation is we don't, um, evaluate, and this is all staff on just the what, so the what is your job description, your roles and your responsibilities, and all of those things.

We also, um, evaluate staff on the how.

Russel Lolacher: Hmm.

Jonathan Njus: How they're showing up. And we actually have a two pager like qualities that we look for in Kellogg Foundation staff. Um, and that to me is like, I think was such progress. So, you know, you ask about success. I think for me it's, um, yes, it's how, um, you know, middle managers, senior leaders, frontline supervisors.

Are treating their staff, but really how are they kind of showing up kind of day to day in and out and that that, um, that is so hugely important to culture and like really, you know, in terms of like, you know, it may sound soft in a lot of ways, but there's really a business case to be made for it. I mean. 39% are likely to turn down a job opportunity due to a perceived lack of inclusion. 50% reduced risk of turnover when workers report feelings of belonging. 79% of employees who claim that a major reason for leaving their job is a lack of appreciation. These things matter to the bottom line, but. You've gotta start from that place of like, okay, how are our leaders showing up day in and day out with our team?

So for me, you know, success is, you know, you're gonna see those numbers go down over time. You can measure that, I mean, their inclusion surveys and you know, you can close the gap. I think you're gonna see a reduction in, in turnover and increase in production. But it's gonna be caused by your leaders showing up better, um, day to day.

Russel Lolacher: I love that we always try to shift, and I've done it myself too, where we shift like, well, it might be a little soft. Anybody listening that has a problem with soft things is part of the problem.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I, I know for sure. I mean, I, you know, part of it, I, you know, kind of prepping for this, like, you know, there's a business case to be made for this. There's a human case to be made for this. Like how and I, you know, just how are we in the workplace? Um, you know, we need each other as human beings, you know, like they're like feeling that connection, being in that relationship.

I mean, that's hugely important. I mean, one of the, um, things that I've enjoyed reading is the Harvard study on adult development and, you know, the, you know, the. The quote there is, the good life is built with good relationships, and the happiest people have the best relationships. And part of that is relationships at work.

You know, it's relationships with coworkers, it's relationships with bosses, and if you have good relationships, you're happier, you're healthier. Yes, the business is gonna benefit from that, but you are, you know, as, as a human being. So anyway, I agree wholeheartedly, Russel, like I, um, it's good for you. And we don't, we don't make that case enough, you know, when we're having those conversations, um, with, with leaders, um, across organizations.

Russel Lolacher: Well, that goes to the point that quote, unquote, leaders shouldn't have to be sold the human side of business or they wouldn't be leaders, they're managers, um, to that point, so. On the flip side of that, I wanna talk about your work because you're going in and you are trying, you're working with middle managers to try to get them to buy into DEI and their leaders.

So what do you tell? So I'm a middle manager. I'm trying to understand how to prepare myself to be better in diversity, equity, inclusivity, belonging. What are you telling them that their own self work should look like to understand DEI efforts?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah. Um, that's a, you know, really good question. I mean, I, I would say, you know, you've got to, um, you know, you've gotta start with yourself. So I think you've gotta do your own work, um, as a leader. And so. We all have biases, um, in, you know, and a lot of that is, you know, it comes from the messages, the images like we see growing up and throughout.

And so we all have, um, thoughts about others, you know, and so like, you've gotta. Focus on that, you know, like, like, and, and, and investigate that, you know, where, you know, where might I have, um, some, you know, prejudices or some judgements about other people. And that's your starting point and you've gotta work on that.

And, you know, changing those thoughts, which will change your kind of feelings and your actions. Um, and then, you know, I think, um. You know what's, you know, what's important is um, um, you know, how you show up, you know, with, with your team. So as I've talked about earlier, I think, and one thing that I've really, um, appreciated is thinking about my 50% and their 50%. I focus on my 50% and what I can control. I think a lot of times we're trying to control their 50%. Um, and so kind of giving them space to be who they are and do what they do. Um, I think another thing, it's not just words. It's also like your tone and your body language matters and, and, and how you're showing up as a middle manager.

Um, I think we've all seen that stat when you're, when you're talking with someone. It's 7% words, but it's 38% tone. It's, you know, 55% body language. So having that, um, I think that's, you know, that's really important in how you're showing up. So that's what I, that's where I would start, is like, how, how you're showing up, um, as you know, as a leader.

Um, and, you know, and then, um. I think kind of continuing that, I mean, we can dive deeper if you want. Like there are, um, there are moments that matter, like within an organization and so you gotta pay attention to that. So I'm showing up in a certain way. I think consistently, intentionally. I think you've got it.

That's a, that's really key too, is the kind of moments that matter. Your one-on-ones, your group conversations, maybe something. Critical has happened at the organization or in society. Those are important times as well. So, um, you know, we can dive deeper there.

Russel Lolacher: I mean, to the point, vulnerability comes up for me a lot because if. A manager, a middle manager is self-reflecting and they're coming up with all these biases. There's some shame that comes with that too, as they're recognizing that they don't have the right answers or they've been carrying themselves in the wrong way for a while.

Uh, a perfect example of this was I had a middle manager reach out to me after the George Floyd, uh, murder, and it was the fight between all black all. All lives matter versus Black Lives Matter. Now, this person came up to me and said, I didn't know the difference. I didn't know that it was wrong to say All lives matter.

I didn't get it. I, I was saying it over and over again. Yeah. But now that I understand why it's important that Black Lives Matter and not saying all lives matter, I'm too embarrassed to bring it up. I mean, I'm engaged. I know it, that I, I understand it now I'm educated, but at the same time, I don't feel safe, uh, to bring it up because I might be shamed.

I might, I feel bad that I didn't get it right out of the gate. How am I learning and growing with all this vulnerability? How do you approach that?

Jonathan Njus: That is such a, such a good question. I think this is so, um, so important. This, this piece right here. So, know, we're asking, um. Middle managers to create a safe and supporting supportive work environment for their team so people can show up as their best selves and do their best work. You know, psychological safety, we have gotta offer that for middle managers as well.

Inclusion goes both ways, and I think a lot of times, like, you know, uh. Think about the last 10 years. I mean, we've had, you know, these major movement social movements in our country. You think about gay marriage and Me Too, and Black Lives Matter, the world and the workplace is becoming a lot different for white men, and you need to adapt and adjust to it.

But to assume that. You just have to do it or you just don't get it really isolates and I think we lose a lot of white men in that process. When, you know this example you provided, I think the majority of men, they wanna do better, but they don't know how to do better 'cause they haven't had to. They could say and do what they wanted within reason, you know, within the law. But like, how do I be more inclusive leader like that? Like you, you can just diving deeper on that question, I think that's where these programs, and you know, I heard yesterday we're gonna develop an inclusive leadership journey. You know, like I think that. S giving a safe space for leaders to kind of ask those questions is important.

You know, I've thought about, um, um, you know, having peer groups, you know, for middle managers, um, maybe that already happens, but like having a space where you can talk this through. I think you've gotta. You gotta have trainings, you know, like, um, and maybe do some role playing. You know, you have, like I talked about, those moments that matter.

Play that out, you know, um, because that's not easy to do, you know? So play that out, make your mistakes, you know, um, do your failures. I think that's key too. Um, but. To assume that like, you know, yes, in some ways maybe have been the problem, but can be really a part of the solution. And so I think there's an opening and opportunity right now to reach out to middle management and help with the next phase of this work.

Russel Lolacher: What do you tell a middle manager who's afraid of saying the wrong thing as they're trying to prepare for a lot of these conversations? Because it's one thing to say we have psychological safety. It's another to put your toe into that environment and going, is it, can I, that sort of thing.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I mean, I, um, I mean, you, you mentioned it earlier. I mean, I think you've gotta start with, um, you know, vulnerability. Um, you know, there's, you're gonna feel uncomfortable and that is, you've gotta embrace that, um, to be in a situation. And I'll give you an example. Um, so you mentioned George Floyd's, um, um, killing, you know, in 2020.

And we, um. We brought together, um, uh, a, you know, just, I forget the exactly, it was a, not as an organization, but I think a team or sub-teams to just talk about it. And I was leading one of those conversations. So me as a white man a lot, you know, a number of people of color, women of color. I was about 15 minutes into an hour conversation, and I just realized I was not, I was asking the wrong questions.

I wasn't following up the right way. It was off, you know, and I, and I was not meeting that moment. And so I, um, messaged a colleague in the room, a woman of color who I have a lot of respect for and a good relationship with. I said, can you please take over this conversation? I cannot, like, I'm not, I'm, I felt like I was causing harm in that moment and I, you know, the emotions were so raw back then.

So, you know, then, you know, there, like the world is lots happening in the world. So then we have, you know, what happened at the Capitol in January of 20? we're in, we're in, here's something else that happens. You can't ignore that. You've gotta talk about that with your team. And so what I did is I did some researching on like, how do I approach this?

How do I structure it? And so I had a checklist of what to do, you know, creates, you know, I created space, I acknowledged that, um. This is a difficult time. I affirmed how people were feeling, but I, I personalized it. How do I feel about this? You know, as like, you know, Jonathan Noose, like outside of my title and every everything else, you know, you know, offer support and encouragement, um, highlighted how we're gonna respond as an organization.

That worked a lot better than the last time, but like, you are not gonna get it right from the start. But if you can go there, you're gonna become a better, you know, manager or leader, whatever. But you're also gonna have, um, uh, better relationships with your team. They're gonna trust you more. They're gonna, and that, that's gonna help long term too, because. I don't have it all figured out. Probably never will. I'm gonna make mistakes in the future. But they know, like I have the best of intentions. Like I've gotten it right a lot of times. So there's more. I think it gives you more of a runway to try things in the future. So anyway, that's, um, that's an example from, from my life.

Russel Lolacher: No, I, I, I like that a lot. It's very important to highlight personal vulnerability. 'cause it brings relatability into it. It, it shows that I'm not just a mouthpiece for the organization. I am a human being here that you may or may not be able to relate to, but at least I'm trying and trying, can provide a platform for trust.

And like, I don't un completely agree with you, but I see that you're trying, you're, you're working to this, that I might give you some. Soft, some soft environment in which to play, uh, that your team might be a little bit more embracing of. I think that's, I think it's really important, but there also is a lot of, Hmm.

As a, a leader of a team, what kind of stories are you trying to tell then? Because. And as it pertains to the benefits of this, because there will be a lot of people that be like, I don't care. I just wanna do my job. What is, why is DEI something I have to worry about? I don't hire anybody. I'm just here trying to do my work.

Um, I don't care what the person looks, acts like beside me in the fact that they're just more passive, not more proactive. What are you, how do you, how do you, as a leader engage your team? What stories are you telling to get them more interested, involved, engaged,

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I mean, just I'll, I'll go there. I just wanna follow up on one point from the previous, I think, you know, for me to be, get better as you know, a white man that has certain, um. Privileges, you know, experiences, et cetera, et cetera. I'm gonna have to be in really close communication with people who have a different experience than and background than I do.

So that relationship goes both ways. 'cause I've learned a tremendous amount. I talked about my, you know, my colleague who I turned that conversation over to just talking with them. So I just wanna highlight that point. It's, you don't want. White men, like on their own, trying to figure this out. You can do this.

Listen, you gotta do your own work, but you need to do this work in relationship with other people who are different from you. I just wanna make, you know, wanna make

Russel Lolacher: Good point.

Jonathan Njus: Um, I mean, I think we've gotta, like, it's not DEI, it's like this is about how, like it is about relationships at work, Russel it is.

How are we gonna be together, you know, as. A team, you know, how are we gonna relate to each other day to day? What are our values? What are our priorities? How are we gonna hold each other accountable? How am I gonna model that? That work environment, like I said earlier, safe and Supported is gonna enable all of us to bring our best self and do our best work like that.

Like that is something we all desire. On a human level, you know, as we were talking about earlier. I think the other thing too is, you know, to get people to share out about their, not so much their identity, but their background and experiences. We have a lot more in common than we don't, and I love those types of conversations when, um, and I think some of this is happening with ERGs, for example.

Russel Lolacher: Hmm.

Jonathan Njus: Like caregiving ERGs, you know, like, okay, I'm, I'm in a caregiving situation. I'm taking care of my parent or my grandparent on a full-time basis. There's commonality there. I'm a first generation worker in this environment. You know, like I, you know, I, I need some support there. Um, you know. Parenting ERGs, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

I think there's some opportunities to build some bridges, you know, across identity. Um, and that's something that I would, you know, focus on as well. I think the other thing too is like, you know, diversity is, you know, and I'd said this earlier, it's not just, you know, good for business, it's good for you. I mean, just like those.

That's been one of the blessings of my career so far, is I've worked in very diverse environments, you know, and there's just, um. There's a richness to it, but you just, you have, you know, more perspectives on a problem and on a project you have more ideas on how to move forward and, and what to do better.

Um, and I just, I've just, I've loved it. I mean, I, I didn't necessarily set out to have that. So, I mean, really like saying, you know, diversity is a good thing. It's a good thing for our team. It's a good thing for our organization. I think we just have to broaden the definition of diversity because it is a broad definition and we are leaving some people out, you know, and so how do we bring more people in?

Russel Lolacher: We've talked about it as it pertains to, it's a program. We've talked about it as you know, go. Into workshops and getting more educated. How do you operationalize this? This should be a day-to-day thing. This isn't a well, in the next month we're gonna be doing a workshop, and then in six months from now we're gonna do another one.

Like this is day-to-day, every day. How, how does a middle manager operationalize this within the organization, especially if they're not getting some mandate from executive?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I do think you need, um, you need the inclusive leadership programs. Um, and these can't be one-offs. I think that's where. You know, we'd, we would have implicit bias trainings in the field, and those just really didn't work. You need something that's longer term and one, like I said earlier, safe and supportive space.

To have those peer groups. 'cause you need to be on a learning journey, you know, as a middle manager if you're just not where you need to be. Um, you know, one person I have a lot of respect for in the field is Joan Williams. Um, who's wrote, um, is wrote, um, biased interrupters, and she talks about, and I think this is how you have to break it down.

And we, we did, um, we have a topical course on how to build the best teams and really like that. I'll give you an example. So I was, um, I was part of a panel, um, last spring and we had some middle managers on it. And you know, we never, like, you go to these panels at conferences and it's all DEI experts and DEI leaders, et cetera, et cetera.

You don't really very rarely have practitioners that are sitting up there talking about it. And it was a fascinating conversation. And this guy said, I. I, you know, I don't know what you're talking about when you come with DEI, this and DEI that, and, and, but when you tell me like, oh, this is a way that you can build the best team, then you've got, then okay, then I'm, oh, I, I know what you're talking about now.

And so that's. How to build the best team. So I, you know, it starts with selecting your team so you know who's in the candidate pool, who's in the interview pool, like who has a shot, a fair shot at this job. You've got it. You've gotta have objective criteria when you're doing the hiring. It can't be about fit.

And we know what that means. Like who does it fit for and who doesn't fit, you know, who doesn't it fit for? So it's gotta be about objective criteria. Um, and then I think you, you know, you've gotta ask, you know, skill, experience related questions, and you gotta ask the same questions of everyone. So that's.

Selecting your team, managing your team, um, who gets, um, the assignments and who doesn't, you know, in terms of the projects where you can really, um, prove yourself. Um, and, and then on the flip side of that, there's a term called office housework. Um, that, you know, Joan has used in her writing, you know, it's obvious.

It could be little housework, but like, you know, the administrative tasks, the emotional labor, those type of things. Like who's getting that versus this more kind of glamor work. Like you've got, like, those are things, as a leader you gotta figure that out. Who's getting the assignments and who isn't. Um, so I think that's really important.

Um, I think, you know, when it comes to meetings, so this is when you're managing your team. Who's talking and who isn't, who's talking over people, you know, he repeating, you know, we see that a lot. And that's where you really have to interject and say, you know, thanks for that. I think that's, you did a really good job building on her point.

You know, I think that's part of it too. And then, you know, I mentioned this earlier, how you're evaluating your team. It has to be about performance. Not potential has to be about, you know, skill, not personality. So I think that's key too. Um, and then lastly, I would say. You know, how can you promote your team?

So not just mentorship, but sponsorship. So how am I amplifying achievements? Um, how am I'm kind of boosting them, you know? Okay, yeah, I think she'd be great for this, or he'd be great for that. And then defending them too, you know, if and when need be. So my point there, and we can go deeper into any of these, is as an organization.

The how you do it is extremely important. So you can, the how to select your team, how to manage your team, how to evaluate your team, how to promote your team, diving deep in the how so that they're showing up the way that they should, that's gonna make you a much more effective, um, manager at the end of the day.

And I think you're gonna have the best team too. And that's, you know, that's what managers want.

Russel Lolacher: And I love that you tapped on something. I really. Talk about a lot, which is communication. And you said right off the bat that I don't know what you're talking about, the diversity, the equity. I just wanna make the best team, and that's a language exercise that is instead of taking these words that now have a lot of baggage attached to them, that people will have their own preconceived notions about.

Because that's how we want to communicate. That's not communication. Communication is not only what we say, it's what people hear and understand. So if we keep talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, and it's not having the result or the buy-in that we want, we need to change the language for them to understand.

And I love the idea of shifting it to teams because everybody gets that. It's,

Jonathan Njus: Yeah,

Russel Lolacher: Teams about productivity, teams, about cohesion teams is about humanity, teams about, so I, I think the conversation needs to stop being about jamming. DEI down our throat

Jonathan Njus: for sure.

Russel Lolacher: pertains to this is what we need to do and it's not gonna change versus adaptability and agility into what do people need to hear to really get these concepts, even if we can't use those words.

So I love, I love that you brought up communication, 'cause that's

Jonathan Njus: there's a, yeah,

Russel Lolacher: key.

Jonathan Njus: sorry, there's an el. Yeah, just there's, I just wanna highlight this. There's an element to that with like, um. Speaking a language. DEI is one example. But listen, we, there are a lot of acronyms thrown out and a lot of, you know, terms and phrases, et cetera, et cetera. If I'm talking with someone like take that middle manager, if they don't know what I'm talking about, that's offensive.

That's offensive to them. And there's a flip side of that. They're thinking, they may be thinking, oh. You know, I get it. And they don't, you know, and that like, that's, that is really going in the exact opposite direction in terms of relationships at the organization. And so that's where you really get some hardening, you know, because I'm not treat being, treating, being treated inclusively, you know, you aren't listening to me.

So I just wanna highlight that point, Russel. 'cause I feel like that is. Underlying in a lot of ways. Like we really have to meet people where they're at and a hundred percent like talk their language. And that's where I wanna, like another thing that, you know, how leaders can show up is like talking less and like something I keep working on.

You know, like, do I really need to say anything? Am I gonna add anything? Just start with listening. And that's what a lot of organizations in our network have done is like they just start listening to managers and workers and you know, just asking questions. You'll figure out what you need to do.

Russel Lolacher: It's really understanding that situational awareness. It's not we self-awareness, absolutely, but situational awareness, to your point, paying attention how things are working, listening be an other. Outside to see what environment you're even working in to begin with. Um, because we don't know what problems exist.

We can't solve problems we don't know about. So it's really understanding what we're even trying to tweak or not fix. Like maybe there's nothing to fix in certain areas, and that's okay too. So let's wrap it up, Jonathan. 'cause I have a feeling we could talk a lot about,

Jonathan Njus: Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: keep talking about this, but if somebody's listening, a middle manager's listening, or somebody that has the influence over a middle manager.

Where would we start tomorrow? Where would we dip our toe in tomorrow to sort of get that path to engaging middle managers more in the DEI effort?

Jonathan Njus: Yeah, I, you know, I've wrote an article about this on, in, in LinkedIn. I think, you know, with middle management, um, you can control some things. But you can't control a lot of things. You know, that's, you know, on the one hand you're in the middle of it all. So you have a lot of influence in terms of hiring and promotion and culture and all the things, like for sure there's power there, but you're also powerless in a, in some ways 'cause you're managing up, you're managing down.

Like it's, um, but you can choose who you're gonna be. You have that control. Who am I gonna be day in and day out with my team? One of the, um, writers I love is Mar uh, Margaret Wheat Wheatley. Um, and she has this quote, who do you choose to be for this time? Are you willing to use whatever power and influence you have to create islands of sanity that evoke and rely on the our best human co qualities to create, produce and preserve?

We have that power as middle managers, we can choose how we're gonna show up day to day. That's within our purview. And so that's, like I said this earlier, like focusing on yourself, you know, where do I need to learn? How do I need to approve? Um, and your team is really gonna appreciate that over time.

Russel Lolacher: That is Jonathan Njus. He's the program lead for Expanding Equity and Director of Family Economic Security at the WK Kellogg Foundation. Thanks so much for being here, Jonathan.

Jonathan Njus: Yeah. Wonderful Russel. Thanks a lot for inviting me. Take care.