Soul Health at Work: The Missing Layer of Leadership

We talk a lot about mental health and physical wellbeing at work — but almost never about the part of ourselves that drives meaning, connection, energy, and authenticity.
 Enter soul health.

In this episode of Relationships at Work, founder and CEO of Quantum Sense Pam Buchanan joins me to unpack why so many employees still feel unseen and unfulfilled, even in workplaces overflowing with perks. We explore why leaders default to ego-driven decisions, how energy (not time) shapes performance, and what it looks like to create environments where people feel valued at a deeper level.

Together, we dig into:

• what “soul health” actually means and why it’s not about religion
• how to spot when your soul is depleted (and what to do about it)
• practical ways leaders can support teams beyond mind + body
• how small sensory shifts can transform workplace culture
• why bringing your whole self doesn’t mean bringing everything

If you’ve ever felt like something important is still missing in your work or leadership, this conversation might be the piece you’ve been searching for.

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Transcript

Russel Lolacher: And on the show today we have Pam Buchanan, and here is why she is awesome. She's the founder and CEO of Quantum Sense, which introduces soul health innovations and programs to empower employees by reducing anxiety, increasing energy, enhancing focus, boosting creativity, and improving overall satisfaction.

It does a lot of things. Her experience includes serving as a managing director at NASDAQ for 15 years and managing mutual fund transactions, that's a mouthful, at Deutsche Bank before that for a couple of decades. And now she's here. Hi Pam.

Pam Buchanan: Hi Russel. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Russel Lolacher: Soul health. Ah, that can go in so many different directions, and I'm super curious to hear your thoughts of how we can be better at it. But before we do, but before we do, I've got the question I ask all of my guests, which is Pam, what is your best or worst employee experience?

Pam Buchanan: Yeah. Thank you for that question. And, and that could go a lot of different ways. I have a lot of best and I have some worst, but I think I'm gonna go with the best. And, and that was being true to myself in a situation. So, I was hired by this company. And I accepted the job and it was here in the Midwest and I decided that that was not the job I wanted.

I wanted to move to the West Coast and have adventures, and I was 40 at the time and I thought, if I don't do it now, then I won't. Do it right. I thought, I'll take this job, I'll get, into the routine. I won't be looking for other opportunities outside this job. I'm very loyal. So I had the hard task of picking up the phone and calling the hiring manager and saying, I thank you for the offer and I'm not gonna be able to start I am moving to California and that's where, I want the second half of my career to take place. And he, of course, was not happy with that once I had accepted and changed my mind. And that was another hard thing. Like, oh my God, I accepted this job. I have to follow through with it. But knowing my personality and how loyal I am, I knew that, once I got into the job, I would stay there.

And, being 40 you thought, not much left in the career spectrum here and, and I need to go with my true self. So the mistake I made was not asking myself really what my whole purpose of getting a new job was. And it was really to relocate and experience a new area of the country. So, about a week later I got a call back from that company and they said, we really want you and we've created a new position for you out in California.

Russel Lolacher: Wow.

Pam Buchanan: So that took me aback in a good way. And again, I think the, the message there is be true to yourself no matter how hard it is. And to make that call to, it wasn't just a hiring manager, it was an executive vice president of the company that reported to the CEO.

And that was a very, very, very difficult call to make. But I felt I had to be true to myself and my original goal and not just take a job because it was like a great job in that area. But I was like, but my whole purpose of leaving my other company was to go and explore a new area. So it turned out a win-win, I believe.

And so I guess the lesson there is regardless if you do say yes to something, you can always come back. If truly it doesn't align with your, this aligned with my values, but with the purpose that I was going for in the latter half of my career.

Russel Lolacher: Thanks for sharing that. I certainly went in a different direction as I'm listening to that. 'cause initially I'm like totally, I respect. You should have to empower yourself. You have to, and I totally agree with all that, that you have to understand your values. But what interests me more is the organization that did that, because that is so rare for an organization to treat you like a human rather than a bum in a seat, to fill a role that then they can go checkbox, it's done.

Moving on to the next thing.

Pam Buchanan: Yes, I totally agree. It is an amazing organization that really tapped into the humanness of it and was able to, if you wanna use the word forgive. Accepting a job that I probably in hindsight, shouldn't have accepted, right? You, you feel the, the pressure of, oh my God, there's a job offer. It's a great job offer. All I have to take it, I have to take it. Which, not much thought to it, right? And I think we've all been there where you're presented with something that is great, but what if it doesn't align with where you are in your life? And of course, I have my parents on the one side saying, you, you gotta take this job.

You can't, it's good money or it's a, good organization or, or whatever it is. And, and really, again, it takes a lot of strength to...

Russel Lolacher: sure.

Pam Buchanan: pick up the phone then with, a million pits in your stomach saying, maybe 99 people would not be doing this, but I've gotta do this to be true to who I am. And maybe I won't ever get another great opportunity like this, but I was willing to take the risk.

And I think that's another element of, this whole event that took place with me was I was willing to take that risk no matter how scared I was to pick up that phone. And I can still remember it to this day. I mean, it was very impactful. But look at what it led me to. It led me to an amazing, 15 year career working with entrepreneurs, working with an amazing team of colleagues.

And, not that there weren't ups and downs, there's always ups and downs, but I got to live my dream of moving out of the Midwest to experience California. Not that I hadn't been to California. I'd done a lot of work in California. A lot of my previous clients had been in California, but I really dug down deep and it was one of the more difficult things I've ever, ever done.

But then the reward was huge. And again, just like you said, that organization did not need to come back.

And they did. And I thank them a hundred times every day for, for doing that.

Russel Lolacher: And that's the key thing here is they didn't need to, but they should have, like, that's the thing is like a healthier, happier, vibrant, values-based, human-centric organization will do those That's why it's so freaking rare, and that's why it sort of stood out to me to, to go, but wait a second.

That is not common. Which kind of leads me into what we're gonna talk about today, which is soul health. I'm almost feeling like that organization kind of has that.

So before we get anywhere, Pam, define what the hell you mean by soul health. I see the, I see the sign behind you.

Pam Buchanan: There it is. It's soul health. I want it to become a word that we use in our daily mainstream language because we're mind, body, and soul. So corporations and the world at large, if I said, how are you feeling today? You would think about your body first, maybe your mental health, but who thinks about their soul health?

Not many people think about their soul health, and maybe we think about it in terms of, oh, I found my soulmate. This really hits my soul. But what are they saying? Let's start defining soul as a part of your everyday life, not just, a one off, if you will, but what does it mean to really truly live within your soul, and how can you get to that depth. So, because I think it takes a lot of depth of the being because we've obviously studied the physical body, our organ health, which is what I call it, your heart, your lungs, your liver, that's been studied. That's important. Obviously, if, if, if your heart isn't doing well, go and get that checked out.

But that's easy to talk about because I can visualize the heart, right? I can see the organs, I can see your body. But what's not easy to talk about is the invisible and your soul is an invisible part of you because your mental health is kind of connected to your emotions. So people can see emotion like, oh, he's happy, she's sad.

They can kind of visualize that. But let's start visualizing this soul and, and I start with the five senses. So that's my path to soul health, but it also leads to your cellular being, again, at a deeper level. It's not about your organ health, it's not about your nervous system. It truly is about your cellular health, which is DNA, that we carry from generations past, and it can get connected to that soul being that you were brought in to this world with.

Russel Lolacher: So you're, I'm gonna need you to deep a little dig a little deeper here because I mean, I get it from the mind, I get it from the body sense, but from what you're talking about, some people might also confuse that with mind. I'm like, are we talking meditation? Are we talking about, just people will go with what they're familiar with.

So what do you mean when we're talking about soul? I just, I don't know if that's gonna embrace people or make them be turned off a little bit more because we're getting into that woo woo stuff, which is super important. But I dunno if we define it well enough.

Pam Buchanan: Yeah. And it's, it's, it's categorized maybe as woohoo, but it really isn't. It's...

Russel Lolacher: I know.

Pam Buchanan: gonna become mainstream. And, and what happened was when I first started talking about soul health, people said, oh, it's about religion. And no, it's not about religion. Religion may be a tool or a resource for you to go take care of your soul.

And that's what the system made, the religious aspects of our life, right? And they, maybe they took that soul being, but the soul is part of you. Would you go to a doctor and if he said, oh, you have a heart condition. I need your, you know, to do surgery on your heart, would you, oh, here's my heart.

I'll just leave it with you. No, and that's what I think people did is like they went to a religious, synagogue, church, mosque, and said, oh, here's my soul. I'll leave it here. And I'll come and visit it every week. No, it's a part of you. So take that soul back with you and let's talk about it. Let's, that's what differentiates you.

And that's part of my mission too, is like, it truly is like. I'm a female. I'm a certain age group. I have, a certain eye color, but what really defines me is not that, but my soul. And I can say that at a deep level because guess what? I'm an identical twin. I came into this world with... Again, people compare you.

They say, oh, look at you. You look exactly the same. Well, in essence, at our physical level, we are. Right? You're one egg, one sperm divided. So if we just looked at identical twins as the same beings because of our physical or even our mental beings, we would be the same. But we're different. I'm so different than she is.

We have a different soul. And not that, I mean, they could be radically different or they could not be radically different, but they're still different. Even though we grew up in the same household, I have a different depth and understanding of my being, and she has a has... she's not at that level that I am, if you will, to truly understand that soul being.

Russel Lolacher: Would we, would we call this spiritual health as well? 'cause this is that sort of, where would that be sort of a thesaurus exercise just for, to help people understand.

Pam Buchanan: Yes, it's spiritual. I don't use the word spiritual because I found that they do, when discussing it, it leads more to the religion side of the concept. So that's why I like to say, like even our physical health, I call our organ health so that people get a picture of it and so that they can divide their being into three parts, if you will.

So we've spent so much time on the physical, which was necessary, right in our world today, because, we're lucky we have shelter and food. Back in the day, there wasn't shelter and food maybe abundant, right? But now there is, and then now we have mental health days. People are getting more into the brain, the nervous system and how that all works, which is great.

And, but that is different than your soul health that really are you bringing your full self, your whole self to the workplace. And I believe you should to get the satisfaction, the happiness... it, it's better for the employee and the employer. Mm.

Russel Lolacher: And that leads me to the leadership part of this. How does having a strong soul health help someone in a leadership position, in a leadership role who is in charge of other people, accountable to other people? How does that show up in to improve their experience?

Pam Buchanan: I, I think it shows up in, in terms of when we lead, we primarily lead maybe from the ego.

Russel Lolacher: Hmm.

Pam Buchanan: Versus your soul. So are you ego driven? Are you soul driven? And again, you can study that in psychology other places that study the ego as part of again, your being. But that's where I separated out and I think we were all taught to, to lead primarily from the ego, or it's a natural default, if you will.

So if you lead from the ego, you may be leading from a fear base versus a love base because there's really only two emotions that everything derives from, and that is fear and love. So you think of fear, that's angry, that's scarcity, that's limitations. And that doesn't bode well for a leader if they're leading from that.

Like, oh my God, our competition is doing this. Oh my God, we're gonna lose market share, da da, da. Let's lead from abundance and, growth and happiness and satisfaction, and I think that little change, like if you just ask yourself that question, was that my ego speaking or was that my true soul self speaking?

And am, am I grounded in that? So I start the program with being grounded, and most people don't start there. They think, oh, I've gotta elevate to that higher energy level, and it does lead there. But most people aren't grounded in their being. Most people don't know themselves at a soul level. So now is the age to get to know ourselves that in this new paradigm, in this new world that we're embarking on with ai, AI is gonna change the world dramatically.

So we're gonna have to really be grounded in our true selves to distinguish ourselves from those robots that are coming. Because people have said intellect like I can, ask AI anything, the chat bots and, and say, Hey, tell me the definition of that. I don't need to pick up a book and study it.

I'm not saying that this happens in everywhere, but again, it's taking some of that intellectual capacity away. So what are you gonna be bringing to your workplace? And I think each individual on this planet has something to provide and give. So another question is, are you giving or are you taking? There has to be a balance there too, right?

Russel Lolacher: I'm kind of curious in a leadership position or in any relationship colleague to colleague relationship. How does a positive or maybe even a negative soul health, I mean, the other flip side of that, the, the, the, the lack of soul health.

How does that affect things like decision making or stress resilience or just cognitive functions?

Pam Buchanan: I, I think it depletes your energy, right? And if your, if your energy is being depleted, slowly but surely, again and again, if you're going into situations that are of negative consequences or just the negative is the true force there, it's gonna deplete you. And that's where I think we are right now is look at the workplace they're providing.

I was in Silicon Valley, I, the, the workplaces out there, you have exercise, you have food you have, activities, I mean, from when I started in the eighties, I mean, corporations are providing, like a Playland, if you will. Right? But the employees are still unhappy. So what's missing?

And I think it's at that depth. They're not, they're not getting known at the depth that they wanna get known at. They're not, they feel like a commodity, if you will. So I think that if you lead from the soul, everyone feels seen and valued. And what they bring to the table is different. Like it's not about competition anymore.

It's about, well, Pam brings this, Russel brings this, Tim brings that. We all need to come together with our unique skills and learn from each other. Right. And obviously, you, it doesn't mean that you coddle everybody and pat them on the back and say, oh my God, you're doing a great job.

If there's low performers. It's easier almost to move those low performers out or those that aren't committed at that depth, right? I wanna bring my full self to the party every single day. And I think I was allowed to do that at my company. I really do. It was my full self. I mean, I, it was stressful at, at certain times, but I will say that I got the satisfaction because I brought my whole self, the good, the bad, and the ugly, right?

Russel Lolacher: True, but that can also lead to people thinking like, I, I love the the push and the pull of talking about bringing our full self. 'Cause as much as I agree with that, there's also, I don't want full selves of certain people 'cause they're jerks. Like there is a, a certain part, like I can do whatever I want and say whatever I want.

I'm like, that's also not what we're talking about here. So how do you differentiate?

Pam Buchanan: No, that's not what we're talking about. Until you want to ground yourself and check yourself, like we're, let's say, okay, let's say we wanna live positive, negative, love, fear, whatever you words, you wanna good, bad, right? We all fluctuate during the day, right? We wanna end the day on the positive side of things, but sometimes maybe days are more negative.

And no, you don't want to bring your negative self. You have to ask yourself that question. So the first thing is that we're gonna tap into the positive. That doesn't mean I'm gonna like the positive or agree with the positive, but what are, what are you bringing to the table as an individual? Right? What are your skills?

And this is what the company needs from you at this point, but we want you bringing those skills at a higher level. So you've gotta check yourself. No, you can't run in and, use vulgar language or, berate an employee or... not that that doesn't happen sometimes, but check yourself.

Right. So, yes. I don't wanna know every detail. That does not mean coming in and saying, oh my God, I had, I, I spilled the milk and the kids, they were late for getting up and breakfast was a mess. And that's not bringing your whole self, that's just blurting out the activities of the day.

So, not that some people may not want to hear that, but what is your role there and what of your whole self are you going to bring to that workplace?

Russel Lolacher: How do you check yourself? Like that's where I want, so that's where I kind of wanna start if the reflect is how do we know what our soul health is now, good or bad? Are there mechanisms in place or processes in place that we can look internally to find that out so we know how to adjust?

Pam Buchanan: Yes, so, so I would say it's literally asking yourself that question. Almost every single, whether you wanna start every single hour, every single day, every single week, but review, continue to review. 'cause when you're embarking on this journey, it's like, don't you review yourself? Like, did I eat three meals?

Did I eat enough protein? Did I eat enough? Vegetables, did I eat? Did I get my vitamin C in? I mean, you're always analyzing, right? That part of your being, right? Like, oh, and did I get my exercise in? Oh, I am supposed to, I, I should have exercised three times this week. I only did it twice, so next week I'm gonna, try to do it three times.

That's the same with your soul health. And so what it is, is what environment are you putting yourself in? Okay? How are you interacting with your environment? What triggers are you around? So let's take it from the outside in, because it is harder to look at the invisible and the soul is an invisible part of you.

How can you make it more visible? And to start that, let's start with your environment. So let's say you're at home. Let's say that you have a brown couch. That brown couch doesn't resonate with you. You sit on it, it has holes in it, it may smell. What's that doing to your beam? That's lowering your vibration if you wanna get technical, but it's also just, putting you on not a very good mood.

So it's like, oh, what if I had this beautiful blue couch that was soft and had beautiful pillows that automatically uplifts your vibration and puts you in a better state of mind? And I hate to use the word mind, but a, a better state of being. So let's start with your senses. It's what is visually around you?

What are you smelling? Is it a happy smell? A a, a, a stinky smell? Is it, start simple like that because we were born with our senses and if you... obviously we've all been around children and they literally are sensory beings from the beginning. Animals are sensory beings.

So, our senses really tell us a little bit more than we think they do. And it's on automatic, but let's not make it automatic. Let's pause and think about it. Like, oh, I saw this beautiful, flower garden today on the way to work. That's uplifting, that's a positive. How many positives are you putting into your bucket before you get to work, after you leave work, during work?

Why are these, why did these companies, let's say in Silicon Valley, have, all these amenities for their employees? It was to make them happier and more fulfilled. They didn't have to do that, so let's take a look at that and how does it fill your soul bucket, right? So, am I physically healthy? Am I mentally stable? And. Is my soul being activated and satisfied?

Russel Lolacher: You mentioned vibrations a couple times in there. Can you explain that? Because you slipped that in there, like we would know what it meant. So I thought like, let's, let's, let's peel that back. Let's go back.

Pam Buchanan: Let's go back there. You know the good vibes if you will, but I believe we're all energetic beings interacting at an energetic level. So you can, you know how you walk into a room and you feel the energy of that room, or let's say like a football stadium like, and it's the Super Bowl. What kind of energy is there?

You're feeling the energy of that place. So energy is made up of individuals. Items, music, I mean, so we're all energy and how are we giving out that energy? Tim Cook, I believe the CEO of Apple said, I don't manage my time, I manage my energy. And that really differentiates how you look at your daily life, right?

It's how am I managing my energy? How much energy is it gonna take? Let's say you have a big presentation with a very important client. It's not the time, let's say it takes an hour to do that meeting. And let's say you, you prep for five days before, it wasn't the time that depleted you, it was the energy that you, the output, right?

So there's output input. So what is the energy and how do we measure that? We're beginning to measure that, right? With the music and, and the hertz levels and the frequencies, right? And, and how that affects again, the cellular being part of you. You'll, you'll hear it more and more.

This is about your cellular health. And again, I'm not a scientist, a doctor but I believe the soul is a very part of that very important part of that cellular health.

Russel Lolacher: What practices are we injecting into our lives to be able to do this? Because you've talked about a series of questions. Which is great, that's fact finding. But if we wanna nurture, if we wanna support healthy soul health, I like to use the word health twice there.

What are we doing? Because questions is great for data finding, but it doesn't, it's not action.

Pam Buchanan: Yep. Absolutely. It's really going back to what, what are your habits? So let's, let's put into play, like I get up and I eat a healthy breakfast, right? That's nutritional, but it also feeds yourself. At your soul level because you're caring for your physical body to go out and do what you need to do.

But I say that you know what is surrounding you, truly What is surrounding you? So are you in the city that you like? Are you in, your neighborhood that you like, the community like that you like? Who are you interacting with? What people are you interacting with? Are you interacting with negative people or positive people?

Again, we all get a mix of this every day, but if you're lopsided on the negative side, it is time to change things up. So I, I think that, again, soul being maybe a term that we've all heard, but we haven't defined. And I'm saying that soul is interacts in, in your day more than you think it does, I guess.

So you may say, well, those are things that I already do. But how deep are you going with those things? Like, let's say I need to, let's say you, obviously we all shower and take a bath or clean ourselves. What shampoos are you using? Is it fragrances that uplift you or is it just, eh, well, why can't you put a fragrance that uplifts you and makes you more towards the positive end of things? Right? Let's really take a look at all those little things. How about the clothes you wear? You open your closet and it's all dull colors. You're like, well this isn't very exciting. I need to bring some color into my life. That's a upbeat positive, right? Visually, beauty, right? Just art and, and how, how much are you exposed to beauty and art and artists and the creative community. Is that lacking in your life? Again, that's getting to your soul being, because our soul being wants to be creative.

So if your job is more analytical, what creativity projects or activities am I doing?

Russel Lolacher: So I, I hear the environmental assessment. I hear the tweaking based on what you are interacting with, but in a lot of jobs you have no control over a lot of those things. You have no control over who your boss is, who members of your team are, who could be soul sucking. You could have a horrible boss, you could have, that sort of thing.

So how do you take that idea of soul health and bring it into a team setting where you only have control over certain things?

Pam Buchanan: I, I say, you really have to take it, take a look at it in a, in a very deep way, saying, is this an environment that is healthy for my soul? Is it really helping me grow at that level, or is it too hard to overcome? I mean, is it one thing or is it multiple things? I always say you can't afford to put yourself in a bad environment because, especially in negative one, because the old school saying of if you take your top sales person and put 'em with your bottom sales person thinking that the bottom salesperson will rise to the top. It's the opposite. So the negative molecule is much, much heavier than the positive. So it's almost like you have to have a 10 to one ratio. So let's say that as you just said, your boss, your employees, maybe your job projects all have this negative undertone to 'em.

It's time to start looking for a new job.

Russel Lolacher: It's always, but it's, and, and some I, I get that from, but not everything is absolute. So for instance, I could have an absolutely great team. One person's an asshole. I could have, I love 90% of the projects, but one project I hate doing. So I don't, I, is it a baby with the bath water sort of thing? Because if your soul is not being fed by everything we do, because that's just life, do we look for outs or how do we mitigate that?

Pam Buchanan: Yeah, no, that's a great question and I'm not... absolutely. You don't wanna just say, Hey listen, I have nine of the 10 and I'm out the door. Right? No, it's not ever gonna be a hundred percent perfect. Right? So let's say that you have the negative, which there's always gonna be that. I mean, and I'm not, in every job that I've had, there's always that ratio, right?

But I'm going to either distance myself from that person, that project, if I can. That's where you come with your true self. Let's say that you're on a project that you know, for whatever reason you're not contributing your full self, so that project isn't getting done the way it should be done.

Can you come and say, I need to be moved off this project. I wanna take on another project. Can you say that, but be realistic about it? Right. So don't, don't just.

Russel Lolacher: There's a lot of people who can't do that.

Pam Buchanan: No, and that's why, again, you have to sit and pause. I'm not, I'm not catering to the, oh, I walk in and oh my God, I don't... this environment, the, I don't like the color of the chairs or the lighting or, or, I'm not saying that.

And, and, but be, be mature about it. So this is about maturity, right? Like it is about maturity, but it's about. Thinking of things in a different way, right? So yes, you're gonna be, there's always gonna be some negative to a situation. I don't know if anyone's ever encountered a hundred percent perfect situation.

That's in relationships, marriages, children, I mean, school systems, everything you know, has something that can be improved upon. But what I'm saying, let's say there is an individual at work that is really weighing the whole group down. That manager needs to take a look at that and say, even if he's a good or she's a good producer, what's the team dynamic and is it in the long run gonna hurt us

versus benefit us? And what tools can I give if we're gonna keep that person? What tools can I use to kind of get the group to gel a little bit more? Or not ignore that negativity, but accept that person in a certain way.

Russel Lolacher: You've just spoonfed me my next question, which is, so how do you bring soul health to a team? Because if you understand this, if you understand the importance of the spiritual side of your full self and bringing it to work, your team might be very diverse and have very different views of what spirituality is, what soul is.

But we need to move in a more positive, to your point, soul health. So how do you bring that to the team?

Pam Buchanan: Well, I, I, I say that let's start as simple as your mind, body, soul. Here's our company. We provide mental health resources, we provide gym memberships. Let's say we're taking care of that part of your being, but now we're gonna start talking about your soul being, and it's not fully your religious being. It is truly your soul, which individuates you. So I wanna know a little bit more about that. So I start with the senses. Just let's, let's. Start with the smells that you like and that you grew up with. So let's say that I'm from a different culture. What foods did, bring positives to your life? Maybe it's hamburgers and french fries, if I grew up in the middle of middle America, but to someone that grew up, with a, a different culture, it's, Indian food or Asian foods and those smells. So let's learn about that person at a fairly non-intimate way, right?

Like, let's talk about food, and, and what do you like about sushi or Thai or, let's, let's bring it all together 'cause we're multicultural now, and no judgment. Like, I could say, oh, I don't like the smell of curry. That brings... I, for whatever reason, my taste buds don't like that, but someone else may, oh my God, that reminds me of my grandmother.

It makes me feel so good and I love the taste, so let's embrace that, right. But isn't that great if you knew something about that person at the

Russel Lolacher: You're making me hungry, but go on. Sorry.

Pam Buchanan: Yeah, I'm too, so what versus the colors versus, Hey, listen, what, what, what colors do you resonate with? Right. And why do you resonate with them?

Does bright yellow? I just saw a woman in our Starbucks and it's a cloudy day and I'm like, oh my God, you've made my day. Look at your yellow coat. That made me happy. And she's like, oh my God. I know I had to bring out because it was a dull day. And, that was a, a nice experience. I, I talked with some individual and, and we were talking about, I don't know, childhood and ice cream or something and, and he said, oh, I'm so glad you brought that up.

Or we were talking about ice cream because it reminded me of my childhood, and the good memories. So how much of those little conversations are you having? And it can start, maybe start the meeting off that way. How well do we really know each other? And again, it's not the personal, I'm not saying you need to divulge every thing that you're doing and as comfortable as you are, let's get more comfortable with talking about the soul, right? As, as, as just not a, a taboo or a private subject.

Russel Lolacher: I appreciate that you talked about boundaries though, because that's what I was gonna go with. 'cause some people will get... It'll get too personal and some people will be like, I want, I'll get you to here, but no further. Because I like that separation of, well, church and state between work and home life. I don't wanna be friends on Facebook.

Why are you asking me all these questions? And I, I like the idea that you do have to treat them as humans and respect them of where their boundaries and meet them where they're comfortable as opposed to where you think they should be.

Pam Buchanan: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and just start a culture where we want to see you as you and how we can, provide you with a deeper experience because so many people, they don't realize it, but they're just checking in like you did at in the olden days, right? Where you just had the little timecard that you slotted in and slotted out, and slotted in and slotted out.

That was mundane and routine, and we've, we've evolved, but then we haven't, because I think that's what people are just in this routine of getting up, getting on the train, getting in your car, going to work, checking, checking your emails. Right. Doing a few Zoom, Zoom meetings and it's meaningless almost.

Russel Lolacher: Well, the small talk, like, how are you doing today? And you don't care. It's just something you said because it's the script of small talk. And then if you share anything that's even semi-personal, like, oh, I wasn't planning on having an actual conversation with you.

Pam Buchanan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So that's why I think that managers should make those moments, like whether it is just starting the meeting off with a little bit more, how let's get to know each other. Whether it is through work or like what projects we're on, what's meaningful to you, what's what, what maybe isn't as meaningful to you.

But I think a sensory question around who you are at that level. Like what music do you like? And let's talk about, did you know frequencies have this effect on your brainwaves and your vibration? And so almost educational, like how, how can the senses bring you more alive and fully to the party or to the work?

Russel Lolacher: I like, sorry. I like how grounded you make it in the sense of spiritual might be too much for a lot of people to even just jump into that conversation right away.

But if you start with body, you start with mind. It's almost like this gateway and the five senses, which everybody knows, most people have all five senses, not everybody but the majority of us, and it gets us to that spiritual conversation without feeling like you're blindsiding them into a conversation they were not prepared to have.

Pam Buchanan: Yes, exactly. Because I will say it is a difficult conversation when I'm trying to get companies to buy into it because it so easily moves to the spiritual and the religion. Right. And, and, but when they hear it, mind, body, and soul, then they're like, oh yeah, it's part of our being. So let's take that back.

Russel Lolacher: So let's pull back, let's pull back from the individual. Let's pull back from the team. How do you know an organization has soul health? Because if somebody's coming to this organization to apply for them, they wanna know their culture. Leans this way is, is human centric, but what are the telltales for us to even understand that?

Pam Buchanan: I think that again, the knowing versus the thinking, right? Like I, I talked about like, let's say on paper it looks really good. It checks all the boxes, right? Salary, compensation, benefits. A diverse workplace but there's a pit in your stomach that doesn't feel quite right. You should tap into that right?

And then start to look at the full picture of... Okay, something's missing here. Like how many times do you say, I had a gut feeling that this wasn't gonna be the right move, but you went ahead with it anyway. Because again, the thinking mind overrode the knowing mind. So how can I get to that, evaluation, if you will. And I think the more we know ourselves at the deepest core, then that more that we will make the right decisions when it comes to companies. But I think again, it really ask the questions, right? And you'll get answers, and not just in words, but in tone, right? And are they replying to you? Are they making you wait?

Have you talked to other people on the team? See how open they are about, interacting and engaging at that level from the very beginning, because as we all know, the same people really don't change. Right. The the old saying is, oh, I married him. I thought he would change. No, he's not gonna change.

Don't do that. Right? Don't do that. Oh, I thought it was a good situation, but I was gonna tweak it here and there. No, no, no. Don't do that. So really, really asking yourself those questions, right? Like if I go back to my situation, if I really had been true to myself, I would've said no upfront because my number one goal was to go to California, let's say, or a different part of the country.

But I overrode that with all the positives, and again, it turned out for me. But even if it hadn't, you need to be true to yourself and as you evaluate these companies, but I think it's truly the hiring manager, the HR team, how everyone interacts, how everyone responds to you.

Russel Lolacher: Is there a way of looking at an organization... like I, I see you keep pulling it back to the individual too, and I totally get that, but can the organization have a soul health? Because I'm thinking like, what would an organization do to know that it has good soul health or I'm like, I'm sure they're not just let's, we'll do yoga at lunch.

Now we have soul health. Like, you know what I mean? Like there these performative measures, right.

Pam Buchanan: Yeah. No, no, no. And that's why I don't talk about those things. 'cause again, you could have yoga and that yeah, they're open-minded. Or maybe they're doing it because yeah, the younger crowd, we're just gonna check the box. Because you hear of more and more companies just trying to incorporate in the, the, hot topics that are relevant in today's world and oh, it's easy. We'll just put a yoga class on there, have a yoga teacher come in and, and that's not a bad thing, but are they truly committed to that? And then it's almost like, oh, they gave me a yoga class so then they can not treat me well the rest of the five days or four days that I'm here at work.

Right? So that's why you have to look at the, how everyone is interacting and get into the... I know maybe I didn't describe the energy, but, but that, that energy that you feel, and again, just every place you go, ask yourself what's the energy here? Whether it's a restaurant, whether it's a friend's house, whether it's just your neighborhood.

Russel Lolacher: Cool. So soul health, I'm guessing is something we want to keep and maintain over a period of time. So how do we know it's working? How do we know that this is the soul health we want?

Pam Buchanan: I think it's really, it goes back to the, the feeling and how you wake up in the morning and look around and say, wow this is touching my soul. Everything around me touches my soul. And I'm getting there. Or half of this touches my soul. The other half doesn't. But you really need to dig deep.

And again, just because let's say if someone says, oh my God, you gotta take this job. It's a great company, blah, blah, blah. It may not resonate with your sole purpose and your soul being, and so just because logically it looks great and we all have different scenarios where, okay, maybe you're gonna have to take a job to get some income or get started that maybe not totally resonate with the sole health, but.

Get started, jump in the game, get started. That's all I'm asking is just get started measuring your soul health. And again, it's measured through your energetic being, your overall feeling of just joy and happiness and all the positives. And so really just taking, if you're in a really negative situation, start.

Okay, I have one positive. And then every day I am gonna add a positive to this list. And what does it need to, what do I need to change that to a positive, right? So it's as truly as simple as that. And let yourself build upon that. It may take years, it may take a month, but assess yourself at that level, and that is your soul being, am I, I'm put on this earth.

Recognize that you're individual. That everyone has a different soul and a and a different purpose to bring to this world and to the environment, the people around them and what is that? So many of us don't know what that is. And it starts with kindness too, right? And being kind to yourself and being kind to those in your environment.

Russel Lolacher: When you work with leaders, with organizations in trying to instill in them the power and the importance of focusing on mental health, what, what is the... I don't know the, the, the tipping point for them. 'cause this is a lot to throw at somebody going, you need to be more kind. You need to ask a lot of questions.

You need, like, there's a lot of these things thrown at somebody that may not be welcome to shift that much right outta the gate. So what's been sort of that tipping point, that aha moment that you've been able to instill in them that sort of got them in that direction.

Pam Buchanan: I think that when they realize that, okay, we're providing resources for, your body and the mind, and then they realize, yeah, we are three parts to our being. We talk about that a lot and simply starting with the senses, which is easy to incorporate. And I start with products as well, like, let's start with smell.

Diffusers, candles, what is your environment smell like? More and more corporations have a scent, right? Hotels have a scent. Like every time I go to a Westin, there was a Westin smell. So starting simple like that, they realize I can do that, I can do that. And then before you know it, they're on the train and it's heading in the right direction, right?

We're on the soul train, baby. And then let's take music, for example. So let's take a common, common word or subject that they're comfortable with and pair the two together. And maybe let's not keep talking about the soul until they're comfortable about, this is really about your soul health, right? If I can get them to buy into the programs that, again, incorporate products first and foremost, then let's incorporate conversations around the senses.

Then before you know it, you're going at a deeper level. So start small, I guess I would say. And then if, if there is a culture that they're into the vibe and the energy and the soul and all of that, and they're more evolved, if you will, to that language, then great. Then we can go fully in. But most companies are, are able to start at that small level.

And I would say that most companies I work with are starting at that smaller level.

Russel Lolacher: It's not overwhelming. It feels doable. They could even call it a pilot. That always seems to work.

Pam Buchanan: You know what? That's a great idea. I, I hadn't used that word, but I I like that. Let's pilot it and see how it works. Yep.

Russel Lolacher: It's so non-committal. They might throw money at it.

Pam Buchanan: And, and you know what too, as, as the, as we go through and, and the world changes, right? We get more comfortable with certain words as being the norm. Just think of the sixties and, the rock and roll days and the, the parents that weren't, like, oh my God, Elvis Presley, who is he?

Some wild, crazy person, out there rocking and rolling. You guys can't be seeing that sort of stuff. So just as we evolve, right, as as culture evolve, I guess I should say. And before you know it, oh, absolutely.

Russel Lolacher: Sorry, I was just gonna say that COVID COVID pandemic changed how I wouldn't even be having this conversation with a lot of people, or I'm sure you wouldn't have until we really started getting into the, the impacts of COVID and people realizing that there are humans in the workplace and we need to...

Pam Buchanan: that there are humans. And does Zoom really give you the interaction you want? Should we go back to it in office workplace? I mean, that's a whole different conversation, right? But if you're on Zoom, and if you're not physically with somebody, how can you get to know them at a, at a deeper level or what value they bring and not just, again, the, the CRM systems that measure you.

Again, I, I equate those to like the factory check-in punch card, right? Because you're not really getting to know that person. Okay. They did a task. So that's what you wanna be known for, is just a task.

Russel Lolacher: Thank you so much for being here, Pam. I really appreciate this. I wanted to leave it on the soul train. I thought that was a great way to end it, but I, I love the little additional part of the conversation with us. Thank you so much for spending time with us.

Pam Buchanan: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I hope your audience finds it insightful.

Russel Lolacher: That's Pam Buchanan and she's the founder and CEO of Quantum Sense and working to bring soul health to the masses. Take care.