The Real Role of HR Governance in Your Workplace

Governance isn't just paperwork and policy—it shapes how employees are hired, managed, and treated every single day. In this episode of Relationships at Work, host Russel Lolacher sits down with HR leader Dominique Brewer to dig into what HR governance really is, how it connects to the employee experience, and why leadership accountability is essential for it to succeed.

From the Workhuman*LIVE event in Colorado, Dominique shares how frameworks and shared accountability can reduce risk, increase fairness, and build trust within teams—and why HR must be embedded in the business, not just sit beside it. From defining governance to navigating perception, communication, and culture, this conversation reframes HR from a department of compliance to a driver of equity and clarity.

We explore:

• Why HR governance is more than “avoiding risk”
• How to assess whether governance is helping or hurting your culture
• What good leadership looks like in a structured system
• How employee experience is shaped by policy clarity, or the lack of it

Whether you're in HR, leadership, or just trying to understand the systems around you—this episode will give you a new lens on how organizations truly function (or don’t).

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Transcript

Russel Lolacher: Well, we're sitting in some back room, I guess, here at WorkHuman Live. It's good because it's quiet and uh, WorkHuman is very busy because there's a lot of people outside. But I have the absolute honor to talk to Dominique Brewer, today. We're gonna talk about governance. Oh, I have questions for the good and for the bad around that.

But before, hi, by the way, I should let, let me stop rambling and first say hi.

Dominique Brewer: Hi. Thank you for having me. I am very honored to be here.

Russel Lolacher: So I have to start off with the question I ask all of my guests, Dominique, which is, what is your best or worst employee experience?

Dominique Brewer: I have a not so great employee experience that could have been better and has helped my journey, and I think based on the purpose of this, that telling that story could be helpful.

And so I was asked to move into a role at a company and I reported to the head of something, right?

Russel Lolacher: Okay.

Dominique Brewer: And this person had very creative mindset, would talk out loud, make big commitments and promises about things. And then based on not just my work style, but my upbringing, I am a person that believes we are part of a team.

My role is to support my leader in making sure whatever was promised is going to be delivered. And so I take a tremendous amount of pride in making sure that those things happen, which normally requires figuring out all of the nuances up in lower dependencies, how to break things, to make things work within compliance, if you will.

And I got some feedback from this leader. The feedback sound is something like this. Dominique, you're great. You do the work of five or six people. But there's questions sometimes maybe around trustworthiness and why you ask so many questions and you know, all of these relationships that you have, people just have an asterisk. Instead of getting upset in that moment, I paused, I composed myself on the inside and said, please tell me more. And the response I got was, well, you know what I mean? I said, actually I don't, and that's why I'm asking if you can just give a few examples because my ethics, my moral compass are very important to me, and I always try to provide context so that people know why I'm asking questions and what I'm going to do with this information.

And he said, I think you just need to focus on the how. It's not a question of the work you're producing, but you just need to focus on the how. And I said, I'm not asking for names. I just want a few tangible examples of things that I've done that people have this asterisk in question my trustworthiness, or if there's any other words you wanna use to describe it, I would be appreciative because I need to know what that looks like, right? Long story short, I didn't get a response. What I did get was some career advice, and that advice was you'd be a great head of something focused on people and a chief of staff or somebody because you're very overbearing. But to really let that sink in and recognize that for this particular person, there was no amount of trying to make changes, seek to understand. I just needed to take a different approach and really observe and figure out how I would operate in those moments to prevent further whatever this was, right. The belief that he had about me for whatever reason. Instead of saying that as like a superpower or contribution to the team. Full circle because the next leader I had approached me about the role and said, we need you to step into this space because many people need to be supported and we think that you can do that. And I also need your brain power, so I don't have the ability to focus in these particular areas and you do in a way that will help provide context for people.

And so whatever feedback you got before, just wipe that out. I need this. And, I became a dual rolled person, but the second part of that was the chief of staff for this person.

Russel Lolacher: Right. Congratulations. You did great. Here's more work. Thank you. Exactly. But what, it's so blaringly, obviously, it's so funny how curiosity is such an odd thing in the workplace because leaders have to be curious, but then it gets to a point where if you get too curious, the leaders are like, what am I not doing a good job? How can you not just be a cog in a wheel and just do the job? You're asking too many questions. When that is the DNA of what a leader does. Case in point. You are demonstrating to them that they're not providing enough information for you to address some of these quote unquote weak points that you need to address.

So you need that information and they're taking it as a defensive measure of... so how do, what have you taken with you into your next experiences from this?

Dominique Brewer: So you know, essentially it was somewhat similar feedback. You know, you have a big brain and sometimes it can be overwhelming. I'm aware of that, and so I try to always temper, you know, audience.

Knowing your audience is important. But how the feedback was maybe given and considering the role that that person in that particular first instance played in that feedback, which had you not made these promises without me being present, I may not have to ask all of those questions, but if I'm doing my role the right way and I'm considering the impact that can come from whatever it is that I'm doing, I need to ask questions, and I need to make sure that the right people are being brought into the conversation. Because when you break things up or downstream, not intentionally, but just, you know, that's not your area of focus. One person can't know everything. That's why you have a team, right? So I need to be able to ask those questions to make sure that I'm not thinking we're doing a great job in fixing something or solutioning or innovating.

And then breaking something that has an extreme impact that's adverse in other areas of the business that we're doing. Ironically, it's people right in HR. And so the things that break, even though they may be small pieces of something, could have extreme impact for multiple chains across the business.

And so we just wanna make sure that we're asking those questions. And exploring, maybe not adding people to the meetings for the sake of just including them, right? But to make sure that the right voices and subject matters are at least consulted so that you have the appropriate data set to make a decision.

And so I looked at it like, why wouldn't you do this? But I couldn't ask that question, and so I did take what I need to do a better job of is providing context for why I am even involved in the first place, what our shared purpose of coming together is, and what the intended outcome looks like and what's in it for the person across from me, right? And I thought I was doing a good job of that. I was getting feedback elsewhere. It was great. That's why, you know, I was moved into these places. But branding is something that you always have to manage, and without being astutely aware of perception, it can cause a barrier, a hidden barrier that essentially prevents you from being able to do the work. That's important to you and whatever stakeholders you're serving.

Russel Lolacher: I don't think we talk enough about leadership leaders having to lead leaders in some ways, because if they were a better leader, you wouldn't have to, and I've had conversations with people going, but I shouldn't have to, they're in that position, they make their money because I'm like, no, no, no, no.

They have no training. They, they are in that position 'cause they wanted more money or because of an opportunity. So when we're in situations like you've described, it's very much of like, okay, well this is about my situation. I have to put this in a situation and environment that works best for me.

They're not gonna do it for me. And I love that in the simplest of terms, what you're trying to do is literally go, help me. Help you. Help me. Help you. And they just couldn't grasp that in any stretch of the imagination.

Dominique Brewer: Yeah, communication's a tricky thing. You know better than anyone, right?

There's 8 billion people on the planet. None of us look at things the same way. You can have a best friend and love or hate the same song for different reasons, right? But you're still best friends with that person. And so I think as we are going on this journey, especially with new leaders, there's a lot of, or even tenured leaders, there's a lot of assumptions around how we're defining what leadership is and looks like and the way that we've seen that modeled is not really fit for purpose for the constituents that they're leading. Right.

Russel Lolacher: You're hitting on a, a huge topic of my show, which is definitions. We don't define anything.

So, and leadership, diversity. These are all things we talk about lots and never define it. So that I think is gonna lead us right into what we're talking about today, which is governance. HR governance and how that pertains to the employee experience. So first, before we get anywhere, what do you mean when you talk about governance when it is within an organization?

Dominique Brewer: I love definitions, partially because my mother used to make us read the dictionary when we got in trouble for things and trouble was like a, a B on a paper. But I look at HR governance as the framework that you're working in. So it includes policies, practices, decision making, um, processes that guide leaders through everything that they do on a day-to-day basis. And so when you think about that, that's massive. What do you mean? Covers? Covers a lot. And so HR operations needs to adhere to ethical standards because they are essentially the stewards that help think about what type of risk might this thing have attached to it and ways that leaders may not think of?

You know, when you think about HR, it is a very broad landscape. It includes talent acquisition, talent management, learning and development training. Under that's performance management, how you engage on a day-to-day basis, legal, compliance, ethics, tech, HR technology. There's all of these groups that fall under that, and they need to have frameworks and structures in place that define when we're talking about our people, either those that were trying to attract and or retain, and or offboard, there needs to be shared understanding and structure in these frameworks that guide how we're engaging both across those groups and within the leadership spaces where they think your job is only to support us and do, as I say,

Russel Lolacher: Fair, because there's a lot of people that will push back on the idea of HR being more about serving the executive in the organization that is about serving the people within the organization. It's about preventing risk. What would you say to that as it from a governance standpoint?

Dominique Brewer: Well, executives are people. True, true, true. So technically,

Russel Lolacher: I, I absolutely get it. But if somebody's a frontline staff and they're going to HR going. Well, your framework say you're gonna support me, but you're, but the HR, and I'm, I'm talking the general idea of HR.

Dominique Brewer: Absolutely.

Russel Lolacher: Where it's sort of like, well, how is this gonna be risk to my executive? How is this gonna be rather than, how can I support you? How can I help you? That seems to be a lot of what I'm hearing from, is that they're not really on my side. So to hear a governance, it sounds like from an employee, 'cause we're hitting it from a, how does it connect to employee experience?

I'm curious how you connect those dots to support. 'cause you have to do both. In a perfect world, you're doing both. So how do you connect those dots?

Dominique Brewer: So if you think about it, I'll take 10 steps back and say for a lay person, governance sound like I'm gonna get sued. Risk sounds like I'm gonna get sued, or I'm gonna be fired if I do something.

And everything doesn't rise to a litmus test of being a fireable expense, offense. Excuse me. But governance and structure and framework essentially give you guiding principles to operate underneath. How does that infect employee experience? If you have 500 people leaders in an organization, you can ask them the same question and get 500 different responses, right?

And so when you think about things like performance management and going through a talent process or even let's start before interviewing for a position, having a structured approach to interviewing, a structured way to informing people what they're supposed to cover during that process, the way they're supposed to engage, how they're supposed to connect after the conversation, making sure that people are asked questions that align to the work that will be done instead of random things that have been Googled that may or may not align to the company's values.

That helps have someone have a fair and equitable shot at a position. Instead of leaving it to the devices of a team where a leader may have a very specific way that he wants to go, he or she wants to go about hiring someone and their thought processes, well, I just wanna hire the best person that came from the last team I worked on.

I'm not really interested in, you know, internals from Group X or Y. And so having that process gives people equitable opportunity. So when you think about governance, insert thing here, it essentially gives employees fair, equitable access to opportunities and resources that they need to be able to do the work that they are attempting to do or have been tasked with doing.

It also helps treat them with respect and dignity in a way that should align to the values of the company that they're working for, which often is why people select one position or role at a company over another. And I don't think we talk about it in those ways enough.

Russel Lolacher: How do we know if our governance is good or bad? If we're coming into an organization for the first time, whether we are in HR or not, how do we know that we're stepping into an environment that is run well or canary in a coal mine is not?

Dominique Brewer: Yeah, I actually, that's a great question. So a lot of companies do engagement surveys to check and, you know, get a sentiment of how do our employees feel about working in this organization? And so it's, it's a snapshot at a moment in time. And so if you think that runs annually, well, I shouldn't have to wait a year before I get some data to tell me how do people feel working here? I think if you consider organizational culture, it's the air that you're breathing or the water you're swimming in.

And so you know, very quickly after you've joined a new organization. And you go through an onboarding process and then you embark on the journey, 'cause I think the employee experience is a journey of meeting your leader and your team members. You very quickly get an initial assessment of what's the air quality here? Right? Is this leader going to be invested? Are they maybe a little more distracted than I thought they were going to be based on the interview process? Was I bamboozled and this role isn't what I was told it was going to be? Or this is great. And actually the things that I was told during that process is what I'm experiencing now. And so what you find as you look at those engagement surveys is that people often either feel very connected to their immediate leaders or not so much. And you've talked to enough people, you know, like you'll run through a brick wall for your leader. But leaders are also the reasons why people may leave the organization.

And so that immediate air quality check is gonna come from your immediate team and then extend, like if you think about, um, radius out into the group that you belong into. And so the umbrella system starts applying my team, my group, my function. The business unit that I work in and then the company. And so you can have different climates that exist there and you have to understand, well, how do I need to dress based on the area that I'm in?

Or how do I need to engage based on the area I'm in? And the third question might be, is this the right area? Do I wanna move to a different climate? Is this not what's best for me? I think based on those things and the challenges you may have, whatever it might be, going through a process of interviewing someone, applying for a role, a performance or quality conversation, you start to get more access into those governance pieces, right?

The, the processes that the HR team has put in play to, how's my engagement with my recruiter or my HR business partner? And that's the way you get a health assessment of is there the structure to support myself and my colleagues here at this company. Versus I have an issue. And I don't feel like I can talk to an HR partner about this issue because they're only here to protect the company.

That's a little different, and I think that's how it's been framed where it's like, HR is not here for me. Does that make sense?

Russel Lolacher: It does. It also depends on the organization too. Yeah. I mean, every organ, sometimes HR is there just to serve the, that's just the nature of that particular organization. Others, I've seen HR be the most people forward champions, but that's based on what the executive's modeling. Um, it seems to be the representation of the culture that's being modeled from the top is how HR is allowed to operate.

Dominique Brewer: That is true. You know, from an HR perspective, I think of HR as being the parents of the organization and sometimes it's really, we have to focus on everyone else because they need us.

And so most people in HR are people pleasers. They're also realist, right? And so when you think about the composition of the team, making sure that you're structuring the HR functions to support and tie the business strategy into things helps to reimagine the stakeholder collaboration and integration.

The sign of a good like CHRO or HR leader over BU or function, and their relationship with that direct executive team member also helps to create an environment for those constituents, let's call them, that could be different than what they may experience elsewhere. And so I think when you have an HR leader that's very focused on HR governance, do we have a healthy operating model?

And am I conveying that to the leaders with the context? So tying it back to my first with the context of why are we asking to do comp governance? Why do we need to make sure that this is done before we can do a pay equity analysis? These are things that the lay person wouldn't know are happening behind the scenes that do impact their ability to do their work and live their lives because your paycheck allows you to do all the things that you want most in the world.

Russel Lolacher: If you get paid well enough, if you get paid well enough, that's different. That's a different conversation entirely. But HR is a separate department. It's Right. And that comes with its own challenges because I know I talk a lot about... DEI is a thing we talk about a lot on the show as well going Yeah.

It's never one other person's responsibility. It's the entire organization's responsibility. So when we're talking about governance, that is the ecosystem of the organization. But it is going, but it's your responsibility. So, and I used a point for people that can't see me. So my question is, what in a perfect world do you see governance relationship with leaders, not team, not their staff, but the leaders themselves because they have to take what governance is and relay that to their teams, also executives. So they are, it's funny how HR is serving up, but it's also serving down and sideways. So how does that, what are the relationships in order to make that governance work?

Dominique Brewer: That's a great question. I think good leaders create shared accountability. So you know, there's been a lot of, nothing for us, without us type of approach that's been happening lately where the HR team has quite frankly recomposed their value proposition, right?

And so in order to be effective, there has to be certain ways that we as an organization make decisions. And so you may see it tied into other places. There's no idea that HR may have had a hand in or been involved. So there's very close relationships between HR, compliance and ethics, the legal team, and laying that with the executive team so you have this board of directors that's saying, what is the climate that we wanna set? You may see decision making frameworks that have been heavily influenced by, hey, to have appropriate stakeholder engagement, we need to co-create. And if we co-create, then we have shared accountability. And so creating that value proposition, not just focusing on the employer value proposition, is when you're trying to bring somebody in the company. Right? But what is our internal value proposition? And how is there the shared accountability? So it's not just TA's responsibility to go and find you a pipeline of candidates. You need to think about why someone would wanna work for your team, your group. What's different, what sets you apart? What do you love about your role?

Bringing them into that journey helps to create a sense of purpose and pride in the work that's being done instead of this shareholder support model. And so while HR is a separate team, there are a lot of people that still look at it as like personnel. You're, you're here to just fill this wreck and do what I tell you.

When you make these types of modifications, it becomes more embedded. And so you have a dotted line connection instead of this completely separate thing and people want to do. And, and we go further together. And so I think talking about that and taking those steps and then communicating here are the workforce outcomes we've had by having a structured approach to talent management by doing this leadership development program, and here's how many people went through.

A lot of times leaders assume that people know, and it's not, if it's not communicated broadly then it didn't happen, right? If we're doing a lot of stuff and there's a lot of activity, but no one knows the activity or the outcomes of that activity, they don't feel like you're adding value. And so really bringing those teams together, creating that internal value proposition for shared accountability, and communicating the outcomes helps to have a more resilient and adaptive collaborative relationship.

And then that increases org culture effectiveness. Right, so it, it directly ties into the, the business outcomes because people tend to be happier when they feel like things are getting done.

Russel Lolacher: It does. It does. And I, I, I, I, the one thing I don't love about these work human interviews is they're so short, we are almost outta time.

So I am going to wrap it up with one question. If, if somebody's listening to this right now and they don't know the ecosystem or the governance that HR is trying to champion, looking for champions, looking to connect, what can they do? Tomorrow. You were talking about surveys before just to even find out what water we're swimming in first.

Is that the first step or what would be that toe in the dipping in the water?

Dominique Brewer: If someone's not doing an engagement survey, I would strongly recommend that they consider doing that to get a baseline check on the health of the organization. And the questions that you're looking to have answered don't have to specifically say HR, but they would fall into those categories like values, belonging, agility and empowerment, right? What are people doing? How are they feeling? Wellbeing? And from there you can back into what are the areas that we may need to make sure that we have a bit more transparency about and connect dots for people to. And so if you're running an employee engagement survey right now, I think just taking a couple steps, having more communications around the work.

The critical importance of the work, what shared accountability looks like, and then why this creates fair and equitable access to opportunity and resources for colleagues across the board could be helpful. And if nothing else, spending some time with those existing leaders to talk about their roles and why it is of utter importance that they reimagine their partnership with the HR team could be helpful and just a really quick low hanging fruit win for everyone. For employees, and people, leaders alike.

Russel Lolacher: I like that you did remove the idea of putting HR too heavy on the engagement surveys. 'cause to our point earlier, they could come from a different organization with different perspective of what HR is or isn't.

And instead making the survey about being relatable to what their needs are, their challenges in the workplace. I love that. Thank you so much. Thank you Dominique, for being here. Thank you so much for having a moment. I know we could have talked for another two hours. Um, so thank you so much for being here.

Dominique Brewer: Thank you. I appreciate you.