Communicating Change Without Losing Trust

Change is constant—but connection doesn’t have to suffer.

In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel Lolacher explores how leaders can build trust and protect the employee experience during times of change. Guest Dr. Devann Steele shares how transparency, empathy, and values-based communication can make or break your leadership.

Learn how to:

• Avoid silence during uncertainty
• Communicate even when you don’t have all the answers
• Lead with “we” instead of “me”
• Match your messaging to the scale of change
• Care for yourself while caring for your team

For leaders navigating change, this is the communication episode you didn’t know you needed.

And connect with me for more great content!

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Transcript

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Russel Lolacher: I'm getting to talk to all the cool people here at Workhuman Live. I have another moment to slip away and talk to another amazing expert on such things that will improve the workplace. We're gonna be talking about prioritizing the employee experience through change with Dr. Devann Steele.

Hello, Devann.

Devann Steele: Hello. How are you?

Russel Lolacher: Delightful. Thanks for asking. I'm super excited about this topic, especially we were just, before we pressed record, we were talking about how change doesn't end. So how do you approach that anyway? The world's changing too fast for a lot of people, so how do you prioritize something as important as the employee experience through that?

But I'm talking too much because I need to ask the question I ask all of my guests, which is, what is your, Devann, best or worst, Devann, experience, employee experience through your career?

Devann Steele: So I will admit, typically I am a glass half full type of person, and I always like to look at things in a positive light.

My favorite quote is, life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react. And so I feel that if you are gonna see something in the negative, it will be negative. If you see positive, you will make that more positive to whatever extent possible. So that said, what came to mind right away was not the positive.

I feel like as a leader, where I have learned the most is from leaders that I don't wanna emulate.

Russel Lolacher: Seeing the opposite of something is usually a really good way of defining something.

Devann Steele: Yes.

Russel Lolacher: Yeah.

Devann Steele: Yes. And what I have learned through, i'll say a particular leader was a lack of transparency and communication.

When a leader, I'll say, takes credit for work instead of celebrates the success of a team and the effort, that probably has caused me to over index on team. Team's my number one leadership philosophy. We are a team. We are in it together. There's not one individual. And so this particular leader that came to mind right away is a, is a leader or a person because they had direct reports, but I wouldn't necessarily label them a leader just did not recognize the individual. They took credit for the work.

Russel Lolacher: I love that you focused mostly on the team and, and the reason I bring that up is that I hear from a lot of leaders that... and they don't mean to do this. They just, as they're explaining it, they treat themselves like an other, like I am responsible for those six people. So you're not a part of those six people, you're separate because you're sort of this conduit between your bosses and them, or are you part of that team, which you really should be.

Yes, but a lot of people, a lot of leaders see themselves in another, and that's a lonely way of looking at things because they can't, ah, build their own connection with them if they are separated out. How did, sorry. I was gonna say...

Devann Steele: No, I was gonna say a hundred percent agree.

When I communicate it is we and us, not me, and I. Super intentional that we are in it together. The product, it's better with us than with me or one view. More diversity of thought gets you, in my opinion, to a better outcome. So I'm very intentional about using that type of language and not me, I.

Russel Lolacher: So here's a question. This is sort of an offshoot before we get into the topic, is I hear what you're saying. I believe the same thing of the we, the we, the we. Here's the funny thing though, is that when those leaders go into job interviews, they're told to say, I, I, I, because they have to sell themselves.

And that is such a way of shifting when you've spent most of your career or with a team where you are inclusive and then you're being forced in front of supposed other leaders to say, I, I, I. That is really hard as a, as a, as a shift in mindset to think differently. And yet that's what we're told we're supposed to do.

Devann Steele: I break that mold.

Russel Lolacher: Good.

Devann Steele: I, I, I don't, I go with what I think makes sense, not with what I'm told. It's like the speed limit. You know, I, I don't go the exact 65 or 70. I go what feels right at the time, go with the flow of traffic sometimes. But I feel that there are times where it's, I got a degree in this, or here is my skillset that I bring to the table.

I am a hard worker. I am analytical, I am whatever. I think that makes sense. But when you're talking about work, particularly as a leader and particularly for a leadership position. I will never frame it in an in, in an interview no matter what somebody told me to say, I did all of this. No, no way. That's never the case In my experience.

It is always we.

Russel Lolacher: I hear that. And, and the thing is, is that as leaders in that environment, you're being told to do that. You're being judged by other, I'm gonna use air quotes leaders, who are forcing you to do this. This says more about them and the organization than it does about what you're trying to achieve in that job interview.

Devann Steele: And it helps you.

An interview is not one sided, and that's the thing too many of us get confused. You, as the interviewee, are also interviewing the company to figure out is it the right fit for you. Is the culture something you wanna be a part of? So you're, they, that company, those people you're interviewing with are equally on interview and how they approach and the words they use as well.

Russel Lolacher: We're talking about the employee experience right now, like we we're digging into it. So I want to pull back a little bit. A big part of my show is defining things. Because the workplace never does. We use 'em, all words, all the time. So in this particular case though, I'm curious, how would you define the employee experience as it pertains to change?

Devann Steele: Oh, that's a tough one.

Russel Lolacher: Oh, yeah.

Devann Steele: Ooh, that's a real tough one. I so how I define the employee experience around change is how they are... So one, I think with the experience, I firmly believe in communication. And that if you are not communicating, the associate is not going to have a good experience. They are, are not going to necessarily feel heard, feel valued.

As humans, we make up way more in our heads than is actually true or happening going to happen. Oh, this person doesn't like me. They must think this about me. Or, you know, I wanna keep up with the Joneses. Like, you make up so much in your head I feel with associate experience at Humana, we call it at employees associates.

So you're gonna hear me say associates a lot but with, with associates, if you are transparent, you're gonna build trust. You don't have to always have the answers. And I know some consultants would've told you years ago, you shouldn't go communicate till you know the answers. I can't. I, I don't disagree with that more.

You need to communicate what you know, and you need to continue to communicate and communicate again. What is it? I always hear a different number. Seven, eight times you have to hear things over again until it actually sinks in and you get it and you remember it. That's the same with communication and I think all of that gets us to the employee experience.

And if you're honest. If you communicate, if you're transparent, I think that you will have more engagement. You will have a more positive experience, even with tough messages. So, like, the late Great Maya Angelou says, which fun fact I went to University of Vermont. She was our keynote speaker at our senior day.

Russel Lolacher: Very cool.

Devann Steele: So I got to see her in person, which was incredible. As incredible as you can imagine. But you've heard this a hundred times. People won't remember what you say, it's how you make them feel. So it's even a, a hard message. I don't wanna say a negative message, even a hard message, you can say in a way that has empathy, that people can receive it.

And it's, if you're getting terminated really tough for me personally, the, the toughest thing that I have to have had to do in my career is reduction in force. Because usually that is a business decision, not necessarily because of performance. And a lot of times associates don't expect it coming and it is very difficult message.

If you show empathy and care and you're not just going into a conversation and saying, X is your last day, you will get a package, here you go but this was a difficult decision. Here's the whys behind this. Here's what I'm gonna do to support you in a, a hard time that can be received differently, usually, hopefully better if you are actually coming from a caring place.

And what I like to do is, you probably heard 5% of the conversation 'cause you're thinking, oh my god. I'm not gonna have a job. What is this gonna do to my family, to my lifestyle, to my whatever circumstances? Follow up with that individual a couple days later to say, let's talk about questions that you have.

Let's talk through, you've had a few days to kind have this sink in a bit. I wanna make sure I'm here for you to answer questions and let's have a conversation.

Russel Lolacher: So communication being key. I couldn't agree more. Communications nerd over here. Totally agree with that. Empathy, compassion, vital ingredients.

What do leaders need to be respecting and understanding about the employee experience while this chaos, any change is going through, it could be major change, it could be minor change. But because as a leader you're responsible for a team's employee experience, what should they be respecting through that?

Devann Steele: That everybody's different is what comes to mind that, each person is going to receive what you say differently. They're gonna interpret it differently. So you have to, one of my personal development opportunities is that you have two ears and one mouth. You should be listening twice as much as you're, you're speaking, and that can be hard.

Particularly with somebody who's outgoing, has an opinion, might be dominant, type A personality but it's so vital that you need to understand that people are gonna experience things differently and that you give them the opportunity to talk. Provide their feedback. I think about recognition. Not everybody loves public recognition, so sometimes you, you need to tweak.

Just like a team will adapt to a leader. A leader needs to adapt to their team and the different preferences and personalities and individual circumstances. I think it is super important as a leader to build relationships that you are not just getting to know the worker, you're getting to know the person.

And, I forget Erin's last name. She was a speaker on Monday and she talked about different countries and how the US is at the far end of the scale where it's a job. Like I'm gonna state what we're gonna do. We're gonna talk about what we're gonna do. I'm gonna recap what we do, and then I'm gonna send notes on what we're gonna do.

And in Japan, for example, they wanna go out to dinner and they wanna have a beer or a glass of wine or a bourbon, and they want to get to know you and your family and your background. And then the last 10 minutes is work. So I think it's a balance like anything else in life, but you have to take the time to get to know, know people.

Russel Lolacher: And hey, it's the name of the damn podcast. So I respect the relationships thing.

Devann Steele: Right? Woo. See, there we go.

Russel Lolacher: Do we treat the employee experience differently based on the scope of the change? So I'm thinking change could be as little as you've got a new coworker. Or it could be COVID, like it, there is a very broad scale when it comes to change and managing change.

So as a leader, working those relationships, do we approach it differently or just is it scalable?

Devann Steele: I think we approach it differently. Me personally, if my leader's changing, then it might be one or two communications that we're talking about this. If it is COVID. It is constant. You need to communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate.

So I do think it's different for the, the scale of change for, again, the how it's gonna impact an individual and organization. I do think it's different.

Russel Lolacher: Can you over communicate? I know my answer, but I'm super curious what you think. Can you over overcommunicate?

Devann Steele: You know what I was gonna say no, but it depends on the person.

So there are some people where it's like, okay, you've said enough and it's time to stop. You're going too far. So I'd say in those circumstances, yes, people can over communicate. And like, think about the example I was using with a reduction in force, and you got 5% of what I'm saying when you are notified and then the person, the leader, whomever, keeps going and going and going. Too much.

Cut it off, come back a couple days later, have a conversation, answer questions. So yes, I would say as I've thought through out loud, you can over communicate. But that said, I'm very big on communicate, communicate, communicate. But it's gotta be the right things that you're communicating.

Russel Lolacher: Totally agree. I, my gut reaction is always, you can't over communicate.

But to your point, it's also about understanding who your audience is, which is communications 101. Like you have to understand them because there's a lot of people that will be, and and I, I, I tend to find this more in technical people that will say, what do you think? I'm an idiot, because you keep telling me over and over again.

Did you not think I got it on the first and second? Meanwhile, others are either too busy or they're juggling too many things, so their mind are scattered, so you have to do that 7, 8, 9. To your point, people don't get it until these numbers. But there are other people that will get almost defensive about it and take it personally that you are quote unquote over-communicating 'cause that's not what they're comfortable with. Absolutely. They're like, I wrote it down. I got a note. I know, I know I got a post it here. I can see what you're trying to say. So what are we getting wrong? Because I mean, there are so much change that happens in organizations nonstop, and yet we're so bad at it a lot of the time.

So where are leaders, I dunno, stumbling a bit. It's, it's not, a lot of, it's not their fault because they haven't trained a lot of them in change management or to doing communication. My god, I would love more leaders to be actually trained in communication. There are degrees and Masters in this people.

It's not just a, something anybody can do. So where are we stumbling?

Devann Steele: I feel like most places. I feel like as much as it seems this is common sense, that we don't communicate well. And even though we're humans, there's so much emotion tied to it that I just don't think we do a lot of communication well. What I think, and, and this is me personally, 'cause this is who I am, what I think good communication is, is transparency. Is frequent communication. I feel like that builds trust. And trust is, is so much in life. It doesn't matter if it's work, personal, whatever. It's just super important. So I feel like that transparency is key.

I mentioned that, well, actually, let me say this. I think that I mentioned in a speaking engagement yesterday here that our corporate communications team will send out a message to leaders and they will provide talking points in that message. Here is the full message, and here's what we need you to go communicate to your teams.

And they specifically say don't send out the talking points. This is for you to have a live conversation with your teams and know what's okay to say. I think that's huge 'cause you've got a consistent message. You know what the expectations are, a live conversation. People can ask questions. So I think giving leaders the tools and the expectations is very helpful as well, where we don't do that enough.

We don't communicate enough, let alone give them the right talking points or support in order to have those conversations.

Russel Lolacher: And that sounds great, but there are so many organizations that are telling you what to say when they're totally risk adverse and they're like, a lot of leaders who are good leaders will go, actually, I should be also saying these three other things that you're not letting me say because you're too scared of legal, financial just 'cause you're a crap leader. Like there are so many things. So I hear that. But I also know that organizations who are risk adverse and don't trust their own leaders a lot of the time to give that information. I remember. So I had a team retained them for 12 years, same team. And I remember a lot of times I would go, I'm probably not supposed to tell you this, dot, dot, dot.

And then I'd tell them, but I also was trained to know what I could say and what I couldn't say as opposed to having to be handheld. So is it a matter of training leaders to be better at knowing what to say and not to say, or do we need to spoonfeed this or we have a culture that's a problem, like, I'm just trying to figure out what the best approach here is.

Devann Steele: Yeah, so I think it's a, a fair push. I would say that it's a foundation, so you're giving leaders a foundation to build upon to make it personal to adjust it to their team, their style, their audience. I don't think it's a script that's not personable, that's not real. It is a foundation that you scan over, you understand the talking points, and you say, how now am I gonna deliver this?

And I feel organizations need to trust their leaders to have the right conversations. So, you talked about, I'm, I'm gonna tell 'em more. Well, radical, radical transparency. That is what I had never heard it before till last week. One of my teammates told me, and I was talking again in the speaking engagement about change yesterday.

I love the term radical transparency. You go right up until that line, you know, you don't cross that legal line. You don't put the, the company at a lot of risk. You need to have the balance, but you go up into the line to say, I'm gonna tell you as much as I possibly can. So you are equipped with where we're headed, what's changing, whatever the circumstance may be.

I believe in that. And again, trust is huge. That's how you build trust.

Russel Lolacher: And also, I think it's really important to be transparent that you can't tell them things and tell them why you can't tell them those things because it's amazing how much your teams will respect you because they know your job's difficult sometimes. They know you're protecting them, if you're a good leader, protecting them from some of the BS that might be, you know, you're that umbrella, a lot of the time.

So I, I, unfortunately not all organizations are created the same. I say this from a culture standpoint. So we often talk about cultures as this, this monolithic thing, which is a lie because there's 17,000 subcultures within an organization. So say you're a good leader and you know what's right and what's wrong to say during change. You're respecting the employee experience through it, understanding how some will take things differently than others based on what's happening at home for them and that sort of thing. But what if others in the organization are not doing that because you are a business unit right beside another business unit that talk to each other and go, I didn't know half of that stuff because your leader didn't tell us, because they're not as secure or confident in that information. How do you handle that as a leader when you are trying to do the best job you can and your leader beside you doesn't have the qualifications in these experiences?

Devann Steele: Oh, it happens every day, all the time. So me personally, what I do is sometimes if I know there's a leader that's uncomfortable with some of those messages, I will say, let's give the message together.

If our teams are working together, let's give the message together and I might take it a little bit further and that can be on me. You're not comfortable with that. So that's, that's part of it. I think being available for the team to answer questions to help them. You're not. A leader of just your direct reports, you're a leader. And that's broader. That is I, I actually the same leader that I learned some not so great leadership attributes from, I also learned about don't just laser focus on your team. You're a fierce advocate for your team, but you need to be more of an enterprise leader, thinking broadly for the greater good.

And that is absolutely true. So you can do that in so many different ways. Communicating together, being available for that other team to check in, to to answer questions. I love to do connects with teammates and just pull up and say, how is it going personally, professionally, what's going on with you? Gift of time. Just have those conversations and, and be available. But I really think the partnership can be key for leaders who are more uncomfortable. Still building. Leadership's not natural for everybody. You gotta build the muscle and that's okay.

Russel Lolacher: I think one of the key tools I, I think we ignore far too often is values in an organization.

Because I heard this the other day, I can't remember from where, is that we're focusing, leaders are focusing far too much on feelings then they are on values. Feelings, absolutely important to respect feelings 'cause everybody's feeling them coming from a different spot. But values are supposed to be the foundation from what you're building, from even through change. And if we are only focused on, well, you're upset, rather than going, well, courage is what we're focusing on. Let's tie this experience to the values that we propose to say are important, and I think that's an opportunity to really dig into those. And I don't think we do that enough.

Have you seen values used well or not well through this?

Devann Steele: Oh, all of the above, right? So I, I think you nailed it. Values are so key in communication and they're your anchor. So I think they're super, super important. But you're right, we don't anchor to them enough, as organizations, as we communicate. They're a super, super important anchor.

They are what guides us and why we do things. Humana's are caring, curious, committed. So if we are caring through like we are here to care for our members, to care for each other again, those are your anchors. So I do think they are foundational in communication.

Russel Lolacher: And so good for a say, a less than confident leader.

Yes. If you are insecure as a leader going through change, first off, if you're insecure as a leader, you probably shouldn't be a leader. But having said that. Another stronger leader could go, if you're not feeling wellness, look to the values as your bedrock to lead from. Don't assume you know best because you're obviously not feeling confident enough in that.

So look at the, at the values as your own springboard for people that might be trying to grasp any leader. Trying to grasp on is something to start with. So now I'm thinking as we're wrapping this up, this goes so fast. As we're wrapping this up, I'm curious your thoughts on a bit of the self-assessment.

A bit of the. Self-reflection piece because we as leaders are also employees. We are going through a leader employee experience through this change with our team. Are there things that we should be looking at internally? I dunno, training, reflection, like what would you recommend to a leader to self-assess for themselves if they're the right leader in these situations or where they are weak and might need to be strengthening?

Devann Steele: Oh, so that one's tough. I actually, what comes to mind is two things. One is their leader needs to be leaning in and fill, helping identify the opportunities, have the conversations, giving the development opportunity.

Russel Lolacher: Are you saying leaders need leaders? Weird.

Devann Steele: I know. Huh?

Russel Lolacher: Weird.

Devann Steele: Leaders of leaders. So I think, yeah, that leader needs to come in, a mentor that can help.

I also think. Completely flipping this, that self care as leaders is super important. That you are there for your teams. You are removing barriers, you are carrying these weighty messages to support this team, the, the enterprise that you gotta take care of yourself. If you're not giving yourself the outlets to decompress, to recharge, you're not gonna be a good leader.

How can you be if you are always stressed, if you are portraying that to your team in some really hard, difficult situations? So again, the flip side, I think. As leaders, we also need to take care of ourselves. And I feel even as a mom, that can be the last thing that I do, that we do. But you have to. I, I emphasize with my team, time off.

I do not expect you to work all the time. I do not want you to work on all the time. You have to recharge. You've gotta mentally recharge so you can be the best leader, you can be the best individual, whether that be at work, at home, in life. I think that's super important.

Russel Lolacher: We love using the word resiliency a lot.

Devann Steele: Yes.

Russel Lolacher: Sure do. And I have my own conflicting issues with that. However, I love the idea, and this has come up a lot at the Workhuman Conference, is that resiliency is about stability. But you can't do anything about that if you're not caring about yourself first. Especially a team who's looking for stability during change. And if you look like you're running around with your head cut off, they're thinking they're going down with the ship.

Devann Steele: Absolutely.

Russel Lolacher: Like it's horrible.

Devann Steele: It would all the same.

Russel Lolacher: So, how has resiliency come up for you in a lot of this, 'cause you, you live this?

Devann Steele: Yeah. I would say personally I am a resilient individual.

I love change. I'm okay with change. I embrace it. I feel it creates opportunity. Things you don't see, things you would never imagine. I think I was active duty army. I think being in the army, having gone to war, I've been in different circumstances that have helped me be more resilient as an individual.

Helped me be a better leader as well. Resiliency. I, I love that word, too. But yeah, personally it is something that it, it does, it's not easy. At all. It's like a marriage. It takes work. A whole lot of work. But I'm also not somebody... my husband and I are polar opposites when it comes to what I cannot control, I am not gonna worry about. Even death. I'm, I'm not scared to death 'cause it's gonna happen. I know it's gonna happen. It is what it is. What I'll control, what I can. And that is exercising. That is eating right. That is things like that. I think all of that helps build our resiliency mentally, physically, you name it.

But I'm also not a very nervous individual. I just, I go in, I don't wanna overthink things 'cause that, that can be debilitating at times. And so I, I did my first half marathon two weeks ago. And one of my teammates was like, how much have you trained? How much have you done? I run five days a week. So I do, I do run.

But I was like, no, I'm just going in and I'm just gonna do it and we'll see and I'll do my best. I'm not gonna get nervous. And it went great and it was fun. A half marathon was fun. I never thought I would say those words, but it was fun. Didn't get all nervous, just resilient. Let's do it.

Russel Lolacher: I can't believe I'm gonna use a sports reference. There's no off season for resiliency.

Devann Steele: Yeah.

Russel Lolacher: Right.

Devann Steele: Yes.

Russel Lolacher: I just, that popped into my head just sort of like we are always have to be prepared. So I would, I would finish by asking if there's anybody listening and they are... Change is happening all the time. So it's not like they're waiting for change 'cause it's happening to some capacity right now. Versus maybe bigger, maybe smaller. But to a leader that's listening, what would you tell them to start doing tomorrow that they might not be doing right now to better prepare themselves? I'm not saying run a marathon, but, but to be better prepared for that next change, bigger or smaller,

Devann Steele: It gets back to self-care for me. If you are in a good head space, if you are good mentally, physically, you can endure so much. You can be resilient. So to me that is what, if you're not doing that, you need to be doing that.

Russel Lolacher: Perfect. Thank you very much Dr. Devann.

Devann Steele: You are welcome. My pleasure.