How to Cultivate Leadership Resilience and Brilliance with Simon Bailey

In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with author, keynote speaker, research and success coach Simon Bailey on what it takes for leadership resilience and brilliance.

Simon shares his insights and experience in...

• Resilience is a double-edged sword.
• Brilliance is a necessary compliment to resilience in leadership.
• Generational differences in resilience and emotional expression.
• Hybrid work and resiliency.
• The importance of care in leadership.

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Transcript

Russel Lolacher: And welcome to the show. Mr. Simon Bailey. Hello, sir.

Simon Bailey: Hey, good to be with you. Thank you for having me.

Russel Lolacher: So a big part of what I like to do when I start off any conversation on a topic is get a definition because we don't seem to define anything in this space. So we're talking about resiliency here. I know brilliance is going to be a big part of this from a recent study you did.

So let's start off with even defining what resilience is. What is the Simon Bailey definition of resilience?

Simon Bailey: So here's the way to think about it. Business is like surfing in the ocean. You get knocked off your surfboard, and it's your resilience that allows you to pop back up on the surfboard, but it's your brilliance that allows you to catch the next wave.

Russel Lolacher: Now, I love that because I'm a huge storytelling guy. Does that work when you go into a corporate setting and explain it that way?

Simon Bailey: Actually, it does, because of uncertainty, change, dealing with the unknown, and the waves are coming at you. You don't know which direction you're gonna have to show up. Ha ha!

Russel Lolacher: What I find so interesting, especially having done the show for so long, is the resiliency conversation. We weren't talking about this at all two, three, four years ago. It just, it certainly came up after the pandemic, but from your experience, was it the pandemic was the, the trigger to finally get it going or is this just been a natural progression?

Simon Bailey: When you ask people to shelter in place, there's a lot of suppression of emotions and thoughts and creativity. And you're asking people to stay home, you don't go in the office, which was your norm. Now all of a sudden that thing begins to pop like a volcano on the inside, so that's why resilience is so important right now.

Russel Lolacher: It's one thing that we should be talking about it more, but it's now a thing where people are dedicating resources to this. So what do you think was the tipping point? Was it strictly the pandemic? Cause it feels like it's just been all this other change too.

Simon Bailey: I think it's everything that's happened. Artificial intelligence, the whole thing with George Floyd, which really erupted the nation, not dealing with some of the racial unrest. Then we just look at how technology is changing everything and how people just do business. Think about this, when was the last time 10 years ago would you order groceries and not go to the grocery store?

Russel Lolacher: Oh, I hated QR codes up until... then suddenly that's a thing. I'm like, I remember marketers going, these QR codes are never going to catch on. And then it was everything. So I, yeah.

Simon Bailey: And there's a generation that only knows to have groceries delivered, and there's a generation that will never go back to a grocery store because they've discovered something new. So, it's this adjustment, like, okay, this is where we are, the world is not going back. Think about this, fifteen, twenty years ago, was there an Uber or a Lyft?

You always used the taxi. Now, people will fly into a town, there will be taxis lined up, but they will wait for their Uber or Lyft. So everything has changed. Our norms are no longer the same.

Russel Lolacher: The problem is the customer is getting very happy with the disruption because it's leaning into what they've been wanting for forever. However, that's not the case in the workplace because it's not necessarily what the established leadership has wanted forever, but it's certainly what's being demanded upon them.

So I guess, back to the definition of resiliency a bit, I tend to understand, and others I've met, tend to understand that defining something is also... To define something, it's also to know its opposite. So, what is not being resilient in an organization?

Simon Bailey: Well, not having confidence, not stepping up to challenges. When you have those character building moments, your character's called into question, you're like, no, I'm not going to do the tough stuff. It's settling for the way things have always been because you don't think you can change. Your voice is not heard. So resilience is finding that courage. The opposite of finding that courage is saying, no, I'm just going to stick with the way things have always been done.

Russel Lolacher: Do you find resiliency is a double edged sword, though? And I ask that question because of the who or what are we being resilient for? Because I know there's some organizations and maybe some weaker leadership to say we're not being resilient. I'm like well am I being resilient through bad leadership?

Am I being resilient through bad culture? Am I being resilient, so resilient i'm getting burnt out because being resilient is staying in this job that I don't like? How do you reconcile that?

Simon Bailey: It's a total double edged sword, but one of the things we discovered in our research is that employees believe that managers and executives need to model what appropriate resilience looks like. That's where they take their cue. So for instance, one of my challenges and failures when I worked at Disney is I was a boss with an agenda instead of a leader with a vision.

I led through email and my emails were dismissive. This is what you should do. I ran an adult daycare center. I was not operating in resilience at all. And so when people started to leave me as a leader, the feedback was it was all about me and not them. That's not modeling resilience at all.

Russel Lolacher: No, and what a teachable moment too as well for you. I mean, you have to be super vulnerable in that moment to even be okay with that kind of feedback. Many leaders aren't because they just don't have the tools or understanding that this is constructive, not an attack.

Simon Bailey: And I took it as an attack. I was a new leader. I was in my thirties. So I thought I knew everything. But the reality is my information was a mile wide, but an inch deep. And no one could tell me anything. I had a lot of ego until organizational development was about to invite me to find my happiness elsewhere at the happiest place in the world.

And what I realized, their feedback was inviting me to grow. They saw that I had a future, but I was in my own way. And when I got out of my way, it's when I had the epiphany, like, oh, they really want me to stay here, so perhaps let me figure this out.

Russel Lolacher: So we're talking about you having been a leader figuring out your resilience. Does resilience show up at different levels in the organization? Like when I'm talking to you on a, at a, in a leadership role or an executive role or a frontline role, am I talking about different things? Am I talking about a different approach to resiliency?

Simon Bailey: Yes. Oh, okay. Yes. So, depending on where you are in the organization, if you're a leader and you are working with leaders, you're dealing with strategy. What's the execution? How do we make sure everybody's on the same page? When you get down to the managerial level or frontline supervisory level, it's the resilience of an irate customer who's just called in or dealing with something.

How do we be resilient? Resolving that customer need, but also using it as a teaching moment for those who are on the front line. So resilience shows up depending on where you are in the organization, depending on what the culture is like, it shows up differently.

Russel Lolacher: And it did interestingly in your study as well. So we're, I want to dig into that a bit because we talk about brilliance, or you talk about brilliance, and I was scouring your survey to go, okay, how does he define brilliance? Because it's, it's, not obvious, but it also hints to a lot. So from the survey, it specifically talks about intelligence, creativity, clarity, confidence, and the ability to innovate.

I looked at that. It was almost like we have to go back to the Greek philosophers of how we improve ourselves as people through... Like it felt like creativity is important. I feel like I should be wearing a toga and not to say it's not important, but, but it's this philosophical approach that it's not just learning numbers and facts. It is the humanity side of it. So how do you, and you say it works side by side with resilience, can you explain what you mean by that?

Simon Bailey: Oh, I love this question. So first of all, when we did our research, the feedback was resilience was perseverance, problem-solving, grit. Those were the top three that were ranked. When we ask out of 17 different choices, what are the qualities of brilliance? People said confidence, character and intelligence.

And so when I looked at that, I said, wait a minute. If a leader is in an organization and they are all about perseverance, which really skews high for your Gen X, then brilliance is I want to work in an environment where the leader who I'm following understands their intelligence, exudes confidence, and has the character to be vulnerable enough to say, I don't know what I don't know.

And it's now being open to say, okay, how do I help you? How do I help our team, find their brilliance? So when I talk about this whole thing of brilliance, it looks like different things to different people, but ultimately it's your potential. It's your gift. It's your thing that separates you from everyone else.

The other way I define brilliance is it's a system of wellbeing that unleashes your potential. So you find yourself in a company. Am I doing my best work? OK, if you're doing your best work, that is a career that leads to a calling. If you're not doing your best work, it's a job because a job stands for just over bored.

Russel Lolacher: Interesting. And I'm glad you brought up perseverance because I found that interesting, especially from a generational standpoint, because it was so funny because Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials. I was amazed at how aligned Millennials were with the other two in that you talk about grit, which I would never even talk about that because nobody over under the age of 60 says grit, right?

But then it just dropped as soon as it hit the Gen Z where they're talking about other things, that resilience isn't as important, and they're talking about vulnerability, and they're talking about the human centricity while all the other generations are still focused, not for good or for bad, but things that have been traditional for so long. How do we fix that, or how do we bridge that?

Simon Bailey: Yeah. So here's the thing to think about. Gen Z hasn't been in the workforce long enough to develop relationships, to understand if you're going to thrive in this environment, long term, you're going to find grit and perseverance. They haven't worked enough in the workforce to know, oh my goodness, I just hit my head up against the wall. I didn't get the answer that I was looking for. And Gen X is like, just hang around a little bit. You'll figure out how things are done. So prime example, I'm working at Disney. I'm about to quit because I had gone from an organization of a hundred employees to now almost 60,000 people working within 47 square miles.

I can't get anything done. I didn't have perseverance. I was like, I just need help. And I get a call from the HR recruiter day 80 when I'm going to quit when I hit the 90 day mark, and she says, How's it going? I'm like, I can't get anything done. She says, listen, everything you need to get done is not in the employee handbook. You have to have relationships here at Disney in order to survive huge learning for me. I was that Gen Z er who didn't know what I didn't know, but I didn't know how to articulate the questions. So I was just, you know, looking for help. And then all of a sudden she threw me a lifeline and she said let me connect you with two Boomers who understand the rules of engagement. And what would have only been 90 days turned into 7 years because someone saw that I was stuck.

Russel Lolacher: That makes a lot of sense from a mentorship standpoint. I do worry a bit. Having listened to a recent study about remote work, and that Gen Z wants to go back to work, because that's where the mentorship and the networking is, but the people they want to mentor in relationship work are the ones that want to work at home. So, they're going into the workplace going, mentor me! And their mentors are like, we'll be at home taking care of our kids.

Simon Bailey: Meet us on Zoom.

Russel Lolacher: Well, that's exactly it. So, we're moving in this direction of resiliency. And I didn't see it in your study, but remote work tends to be a boon and a bane for a lot of this resiliency conversations, because if it's rooted in networking and relationships, that can be a challenge.

Simon Bailey: So, it's interesting. We didn't put it in the study but it did come up. 46 percent of remote workers think that the organization does not care about them. And we see that as a huge opportunity for organizations to close that gap. Now, here's some other research that's out there. And the research is, organizations must begin to think hybrid work and help people be resilient wherever they are. And focus on outcomes, not just output. So if they focus on that, that helps people become more resilient.

Russel Lolacher: I want to go back to the generational thing just for a moment here, because also in your study, Gen Zed or Gen Z, sorry, Canadian, Canadian. Gen Zed. They also were the only generation that talked about feeling anxiety uncertainty, anger, frustration, far more than the other generations. So I hear you from an experience standpoint, but also there from, from what I'm seeing a lot more in touch with these things and also a lot more vocal about expressing. All those Boomers and Gen X and Millennials, it's not like they don't feel those things, but maybe they don't put it in a survey, but maybe Gen Z, Gen Z or Gen Z is feeling a lot more open based on what you see on how, how they communicate. How does that help? Because at some point, as much as Gen Z needs to get more experience, I feel like the Millennials and Boomers need to bend and lean into Gen Z's experience as well.

Simon Bailey: I totally agree with you, but think about Gen Z. It's a generation that's grown up on social media that is very expressive of what's happening real time. Whereas your Gen Xers, Millennials, they didn't put all their business out on social media. And yes, they could kind of meet in the middle to say, here's what's really going on. You know, even though you don't have the work experience that we have, I could be a little bit more open as to what's happening. Mm hmm.

Russel Lolacher: And that moves me into the diversity conversation around women from your study. They were prioritizing growth and vulnerability. And again, men prioritized grit, which I haven't heard since 1954. So I just, not that it's not important, but I also feel like it's such an older way of thinking it from the, at least the male point of view. That feels like a part of the problem. Am I missing something there?

Simon Bailey: No, you're not. Obviously, Dr. Angela Duckworth has done a lot of work around talking about grit. And has kind of brought it up into the 21st century. But if you have to think about it, most men, Boomers, Xers, were raised in that generation. You gotta suck it up, buttercup. Tough it up. Be strong. Don't cry. And that's just how they've gone into the workforce, command and control.

But if you look at all the demographics, there are more women in college than men. So that means at some level, according to Professor Scott Galloway, women are going to start elbowing men out of white collar leadership roles, and they want something different. So every organization must begin to say, are we doing right by women?

Are we amplifying their voices? Are we ensuring that women are not only leading or co leading, but we're actually listening to them because they're going to make sure everybody taps into their brilliance. Everybody is resilient, not just men who are very linear in their approach. Women have a 360 degree view. They can be listening to you, but paying attention to everything else around the room, whereas men are just kind of locked in. This is the way it's got to be. And it's nothing wrong. I'm a guy who sometimes I've been in my own way. I've had women on my team that I didn't listen to. I had selective hearing and I missed a lot of moments to really understand. Wait a minute. What they were saying was true, but I had a need to be right. And until men reach a place where they don't have a need to be right, it's not saying that you're wrong, but how do I become open to a diversity of thought, to a diversity of thinking? Kind of like Brene Brown was saying, deep thinking, anticipatory thinking, where we are kind of looking around the corner for what's not yet.

Russel Lolacher: To expand on the diversity idea, your study itself is called State of Working America. Globalization is a lot bigger of a thing than just one country now. Every, every, almost most, well not every, most businesses are now having to expand outside of whether it's online, whether it's, however they're doing it, but it's not just the culture of America, Canada, or whatever.

They're now working with other cultures, other ways of thinking, other definitions of resilience, possibly. Did you, I know, I know yours was focused on America working. Was there any consideration on that of how this measures up to other countries?

Simon Bailey: Yes, and we're going to do that in the next study, but we want it. Yes...

Russel Lolacher: I was spoiling it!

Simon Bailey: It's all good. It's all good. We wanted to really just put our arms around America and just kind of understand what's the mindset here in America so far. So yeah

Russel Lolacher: How do you know how resilient or brilliant your organization is? Cause you can read these studies. You can read your study. You can read a lot of them and know where you want to go, but you don't know where you are. How do you measure that?

Simon Bailey: Yeah, great question. So I think the first thing I always like to start with is tell us about your employee satisfaction scores. What are employees saying on Glassdoor.com about what's really going on and why did they leave, okay? When you do your annual surveys, do they go in a drawer? Even after there's been an off site meeting and there's flip chart paper all over the room and everybody's held hands and sing kumbaya. Here's how we're going to change the culture. Okay, that's great.

Russel Lolacher: Post Its. I love me some Its.

Simon Bailey: That's great. Did we really change anything? But then I think the other tell tale sign is your customer satisfaction, your Net Promoter Score.

If a customer loves a brand, just follow it. And we teach this formula in our white paper. Leaders create the experience for employees. Employees create a positive experience for the customer. The customer becomes the unofficial marketing department for a brand that does an advertiser market to them, they will automatically Yelp about that brand.

Point in case Chewy.com. People who buy Chewy, subscribe to Chewy for pet food subscription, they talk about that brand all day because Chewy has created this culture of love that starts with their customer service reps on the phone, that makes every customer feel human and seen and valued. Well, you follow that all the way out.

That employee experience created by a leader that says this is our culture of care. So how you measure it, what are the customers saying, what are the employees saying, forget what leadership and the board says. That's where the rubber meets the road.

Russel Lolacher: And what a great recruitment tool too. If we're understanding a culture that is healthier, that's being publicly talked about being healthier. I use Zappos as an example. I heard about the culture of Zappos before I even knew what they sold. I heard these stories, these lavish stories of what it's like to be this company that is making its way and just hitting it out of the park in every interaction. Oh, they sell shoes? No idea.

Simon Bailey: And part of that's why Amazon bought them. Unfortunately, Tony Hsieh is no longer with us, but he was, he was a fortune teller. He saw it and he was customer obsession before Amazon was customer obsession. They were doing it, living it.

Russel Lolacher: You conclude the study with an interesting quote, which was employees want more from us and they aren't getting it. What is missing in leadership today?

Simon Bailey: Care. I think leaders have got to care. If we put people before profit, this is counterintuitive. You become more profitable. How do we care about people and and they know that we care about them beyond a Paycheck and benefits. We care about their mental health. We care about their whole being. We see them as a person a human being not a human doing. That's the missing piece.

How do we bring care back into the workplace so that the benefactor is the customer who says, Oh my goodness, that's a good company, where I spend my hard earned dollars, and they care about their employees.

Russel Lolacher: Resiliency through caring. I can get behind that. We're going to wrap it up with the question I love to ask because it just, it gives somebody, it gives people to think of something to think about after they listen to this and maybe they can action. What's one simple thing. People can do right now in their workplace to improve their relationships at work?

Simon Bailey: Ask your colleague, teammate, 'How are you doing?' Nothing attached to it, just, how are you doing? That question alone serves them in that moment and becomes healing presence for them. That somebody just asked me how I'm doing, because you don't know if they have someone at home, a friend, or somebody that looks out for them. To just say, how are you doing, and then shut up and be in that moment with them, is everything.

Russel Lolacher: And the only thing I'll add to that is, and mean it. Because asking how you're doing has seemed such a lip service thing going, how are you doing? Fine. And then you go onto the next thing. I remember one guest was asked that and he did the same thing. I'm fine. And they go, but how they repeated the question with how are you doing, really?

And he broke down cause it hit him in a way that nobody had asked before, but it's the same question. And it just was delivered with compassion and care to your point. Thank you so much for being here.

Simon Bailey: Thank you, so good to be with you. Thank you for having me, for sure.