Relationships at Work - the Employee Experience and Workplace Culture Podcast

Breaking Down and Rebuilding from Burnout at Work with James Pickles

December 05, 2022 Russel Lolacher Episode 44
Relationships at Work - the Employee Experience and Workplace Culture Podcast
Breaking Down and Rebuilding from Burnout at Work with James Pickles
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with mental health advocate and motivational speaker James Pickles on his personal experience with the impacts of burnout at work on mental health - breaking down because if it and the journey to rebuild. 

James shares his thoughts and experience with...

  • What it feels like to be overwhelmed and burnt out.
  • What good and bad HR responses look and feel like.
  • How colleagues can best show up during this type of crisis.
  • Signs you might be self-neglecting your stress.
  • Steps to rebuild after burnout.

If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and share with others.
For more, go to relationshipsatwork.ca 

Connect with me for more great content!

Russel Lolacher 
And on the show today we have James Pickles. And here's why he is awesome. He's a mental health advocate and motivational speaker. He's the executive coach for James Pickles Coaching, which helps clients with clarity, consciousness and confidence. I'm the one that actually put the three C's together not bad a, an associate mindset coach and Matthew Syed Consulting with a focus on growth, mindset and performance. And he's sitting on more than 20 years of experience in sales and management roles. And he has a tale to tell that I think anybody listening will relate to and learn from. Hi, James.

James Pickles 
Russel. Hello, good morning for you. Good afternoon for me.

Russel Lolacher
The beauty of a time change where I'm fueled by coffee, and you're just getting into the groove through the day. Nice, nice. Hopefully, the tempo works for us in our conversation.

James Pickles
Yeah, let's see, let's see.

Russel Lolacher
Let's see how it goes. Or, you know, crash and burns. So first out of the gate, which is what's your best or worst employee experience? Can you tell us a story where it sort of still resonates with you? Good or bad?

James Pickles
Yeah, I can, I'm going to, I'm going to zoom out then zoom in. If that's alright, so maybe the context is interesting, because the reason that I became a mental health advocate and a performance coach and growth mindset person, and delivered talks to people is because off the back of being really, really good at selling things, being a sales director, off the back of my most successful professional run, ever, out of nowhere, seemingly, I crashed and burned and had a really acute, mental and further physical breakdown, which manifested as burnout, but really panic attack, huge panic attack for about 10 days, just because one of my colleagues after a trade show in a pub, asked me how I was. And I told her that I was fine, great, terrific. All of the things that you say, because it's not really a question anyway, or certainly not one that people really want to know the answer to. The rules are somebody goes, how are you? And you say, Fine, thanks. How are you? And they say, Fine, thanks. And then you move on. But she decided not to take me at face value that day. And when I went fine, terrific, brilliant. She went, are you sure? Because you don't seem yourself? How are you really, which took me by surprise. And I was so knackered and strung out from working super hard to hit ever more stretching targets, that I found myself admitting to her and to myself simultaneously that No, I'm not fine. This is too hard, I can't do any more. And what happened next was quite a lot of sobbing in front of her my boss, the head of Europe, and the most senior guy, my sales team and another senior director, six or eight people in my peer group at work, who had spent 10 years trying to impress, impress, and maintain my to say, professional brand sounds horribly pompous. But I had a reputation to uphold. So to collapse in front of them in an uncontrollable way in public was deeply lonely. So I burnout and that saw me off sick. For nine months, I spent nine months unable to function well enough to work, but also for several of those months unable to function as a person, or as a husband, or father or brother or a son or uncle, unable to function at all. So that's the zoom out bit Russel. So some might say that's the best employee, not not the best employee experience, we've had the worst in fact, having terrible, uncontrollable burnout in public. But the worst and best experiences was simultaneously with HR whilst I was off. And the best was in the round, that they my employer, at that time, repeatedly told me to take as much time as I needed, and that they had my back and that they would pay my salary until I was ready to come back. Pretty cool. The best was when the senior HR person when I was trying to come back too soon, because I wanted to I wanted to go back to work, at least on paper, because I was worried they're going to stop paying me at any point. So I tried to come back too soon for what I thought were the right reasons. But as it turns out, they were absolutely the wrong reason. Tried to come back agreed to a new a new job role, because I decided to quit being a sales director because I thought and I'm not being flippant, I thought I'll die if I go back to that. So we created a new role. And I was trying to come back to it and the HR person that I was dealing with, to whom I'll be forever grateful. All through my thin veil of comfort and confidence, and didn't leave me. And basically after a call in which we'd agreed a bunch of criteria and stuff, kind of discreetly called me up after when I'm not sure you are ready, I think you might be rushing back to please us, forwards that effect. So how about we just park it for another couple of weeks. And let's just see where we are in a couple of weeks and are so relieved Russel that she had given me permission not to come back, even though it was my idea. But I suddenly noticed I'd spent all day feel like I was gonna puke at the prospect of going back and her calling me up saying, and you don't have to dissipated that nauseas feeling that sat somewhere above my stomach and beneath my heart. And it just went, she took it away. Brilliant, brilliant piece of empathy, and clarity that she exhibited. Let me off the hook. And there in also lies the worst of pretty bad experience with HR too. So let me zoom forward ever so slightly, this all happened in 2019, by the way, so not very long ago, I spent most of 2019 off sick. But when I did go back, and I did in a new role, mostly because I was terribly afraid of being unemployable by anyone else ever. So I went back to a bit of the devil, you know, kind of set up in different jobs. In a phased return, phased return, I didn't really know what that was. But we had sat together and decided that it meant that I would start on the first second or third of January, wherever, whatever the first working day was, can't remember. And that would start doing two hours a week. And the following week, I might do three hours. And the week after that, I might do four. And that might turn into a half a day a week. And then after that, I'd build it up into two half days a week and so on, you see where the trajectory of that is going. And that it would take three months, and at the end of three months, I'd be back up to full time. And in my total lack of wisdom, I accepted that as being logical and fair, and did make sense. I was like, Okay, great. I'll start a little bit here. And then I'm going to build up over time until I end up back at full time. And we'll take three months to do it for about a year I also thought it'd be linear progression, like the graph would be nice and straight. With my yellow pencil, if I don't know if we can use the video or not, I'm holding up a yellow pencil at 45 degrees to represent my progress. And at no point did anybody say that is an imaginary graph. And just because you feel okay, one week doesn't mean you'll feel okay, the next or to the same extent, actually, the graph would look like a series of really big peaks and really deep troughs. So I found Russel that I was struggling with my face return. So I emailed HR, the previous person that was so so cleverly prevented me from coming back for had since left, unfortunately. So I've dealt with somebody else, or emailed HR and said, I'm finding this really difficult. This phase return, it's much harder than I thought. And you did say throughout that if there's anything that I needed, I should get in touch. So here I am getting touch, it's too hard. I can't do it by myself. I need some more support, please. And hrs response. I'm paraphrasing. But it was a succinct little email basically saying everyone's different. There's no simple solution. So just do your best work out between yourselves. So having had the courage to ask for help, which was no mean feat to begin with, given how bad I was feeling, to ask for help, and then be told to sort it out by yourself. Suffice to say, wasn't a very helpful thing to happen. And actually, it just told me that I was in fact on my own, and that all those offers of help and support were meaningless, and tokenism and that they weren't interested really. So I should just get on with it. Set me back considerably that I wasn't asking for a solution. I was just asking for some support. And as it turns out, there wasn't any available from the very department that should be best placed to provide it.

Russel Lolacher
Now, before we get any further, I want to go back. I want to go back to that moment where you're in that pub and you're showing your vulnerability you are being honest and open and admitting that you're not okay. What was the reaction to your reaction? In that moment with your peers around you, the colleague that had asked that question, what was the immediate fallout in the room?

James Pickles
Yes, a good question Russel because of though I've thought about it a lot. What was the immediate reaction? absolutely astonished to see me unravel like that. Bearing in mind that there were six, six or eight people there, but only one of them had asked the question. I was sat right next to her. So the question was not clear to everybody else, we have a private conversation in a public place. But my reaction to it was far from private. So the first response was shock. And concern people going, what's going on here? What's the matter with James what's happening? As I was busily sobbing with snot coming out my nose and a blotchy red face and making funny hiccuping sounds in in visit visibly distressed. So initially, they were shocked and kind of what's happening, what is this emergency that's unfolding. And reflecting on earlier before this call today with you, I was I was wondering, you know, best worst. And definitely in the best camp was a bunch of people who I'd worked really closely with some of them eight 910 years, like I knew these people really well in a work context and, and socially as well, plenty of client entertainment and drinks out and stuff like that. And what they didn't do, was awkwardly shy away, that didn't try and remove themselves rapidly. From this embarrassing situation, bearing in mind that most of what I felt at the time was fear and shame. Fear that I couldn't stop it fear of the judgment, I'd receive shame at the way that I was displaying, like unraveling in front of them what I thought then definitely don't think now, shame that I was showing such weakness and fallibility, where I should be displaying strength and control. And they didn't shy away from it. They, in fact, they leaned in to it with kindness, and empathy and concern, and they just wanted to help rather than bugger off. Actually, that they did as best they could in those situations, but are a little bit limited as to what help look like what help could they tangibly provide. And we're in a pub. So the obvious sorts of help to provide is to get me some tissues to dry the tears and white snot off my face. And then go and get me some more drinks. And then we'll have drinks and got smashed. So I like kind of okay at the time, but sort of ironic because as it turns out, I've been self medicating with alcohol for a good long while to cope with stress. So almost added a bit more fuel to the fire there. But yeah, they helped with their presence. Right. They helped by listening and then empathizing. But the the most profound, helpful thing that they did apart from just genuine human kindness, and showing that they also are not immune to difficulties in life or stress. So they showed themselves as humans, fellow humans, so we shot was shocked off the armor, the clothing of corporate existence, and everybody just showed their true self and shared with me, their attention and the empathy. But they also shared no everybody, because not everybody has a story to share. But people shared that they too, had had a really shitty time, and that they also had broken down and that they had needed some help. And that's where my journey towards therapy began, actually, because these people who I'd looked up to like role models in several of those cases showed that they needed help to sometimes and that helps helpful, and that therapy was a really good route for them. And even more surprising firstly, I was fell off my chair was surprised that these people had ever needed therapy anyway. But then admitted that they continue to go back to therapy from time to time because it's just really helpful. And like, it's different in North America, perhaps with therapy is a bit more a bit more of a normal part of the fabric of life, but in London, in the UK, it's it's almost like only broken weirdos have therapy. So that's why I was so so I'm not saying that is true by the way.

Russel Lolacher
No! Just the stigma, let's be clear.

James Pickles
So it's amazing. It was completely redefined for me what support looked like.

Russel Lolacher
You did mention that you had started to self medicate I guess due to the stress and the job itself. In hindsight now looking back a couple years later, were there any other red flags or warning signs that you can, you know, acknowledge now that led you to that moment in the pub.

James Pickles
I get asked that question quite a lot Russel. It's a great question. What were the signs, you know, what signs Did you spot? What were you aware of before that led up to it? Was it avoidable? You know, how could you do it differently in hindsight, all of those things. Oh, and were the signs obvious. So that's usually the the addition to that. And it's a funny one, because, in hindsight, they were shitloads of signs, there's loads of them, drinking tons of booze routinely, with people or by myself. And being getting home late and a bit drunk nearly every day was a glaringly obvious sign. Now, but it wasn't obvious then. Because I didn't suddenly overnight drink five days a week, it would have been an incremental change over a period of two to three years. So it wasn't obvious because I was comparing myself to yesterday, if I was comparing myself at all, which by the way I wasn't. So science can be really obvious, but the most obvious signs of the world can be impossible to find, if you're not looking, if you're refusing to have a look. So drinking, in in, in one non destructive way, drinking, rather than drinking as a choice. That was a sign. Other huge clanging bell that I managed to totally ignore was routine insomnia. So my wife goes to sleep really easily, always has done like she has been tranquilized with an elephant gun, to her head hit the pillow, she's asleep five seconds later. It's really annoying, but good for her. And I would read my book, one two or three hours after she'd gone to sleep, because I'd have to read long enough to be tired enough to be able to go to sleep. So it's trying to tire out my brain sufficiently so that sleep would come. So routinely not going to sleep until 2am. Even though I've gone to bed at 11. And waking up three or four times a night, anyway, four or five days a week. And one or two of those awakenings in the night, I'd be completely soaked in sweat. So like big night sweats, three several times a week, if not several times a night. So sweaty, I'd have to tell tell myself off, and then sleep on the towel, because we're very close with soaking wet. And that passed for normal? Again, I didn't start off like that. But I ended up like that. And the change was so small in terms of frequency and severity and duration, that I didn't notice them. And also I wasn't looking lots of signs like that.

Russel Lolacher
How much do you feel the culture of the organization you were working in, contributed down this path?

James Pickles
So I'd say it did. But I would not characterize it as being the antagonist or the villain of the story. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't describe wouldn't be so simplistic as to say, oh, yeah, it's because we had really toxic culture.

Russel Lolacher
It could be an enabler, though. It doesn't need to be toxic. It could be just by inaction it's demonstrating permission.

James Pickles
Which is a great, which is a great angle for this because we're definitely enabler. The thing about an enabler as it is it encourages and enables you to do exhibit certain behaviors, right. So I would say that I was culpable that I was it takes two to tango, and I definitely was at that dance. I used to hit my targets every year, right. So it was a record breaking run of hitting targets. My team was the one I left was the fastest growing, most profitable, most successful team in Europe. So much so that the the other divisions would send me their salespeople to train in the way that we were doing it. And I my relationship with my target had become very skewed, whereby 100% was no longer a success, success lift. In the extent to which I smashed the target and smashed I would use those words smashed the target, it wasn't it wasn't enough to just beat it. That was the minimum, I had to smash it. And as you can imagine, that took more and more effort, and energy, physical and emotional. And it worked. So every time this company set me off to do something, I'd go and do it and then some which enabled my financial contribution to fill holes in other areas. So the company say can you do more? And I grew very, very used to saying yes, I like saying yes, I like the affirmation that it gave me the validation that when I was asked to deliver some new project at all, deliver against an extra financial target or get involved in marketing or stand up and be the poster boy at some new trade show. That's not even in my market. I'd say yes, and everybody would be pleased. And I'd be pleased because they were pleased. And I kind of liked the challenge. And I thought, well, there's nothing I can't do. So I might as well just say yes to everything. And that was proved relentlessly right. Until I was proved to relentlessly wrong by being offset for nine months. So I was totally complicit in that. I kind of liked it kind of got off on it. Even my ego loved it. Love this. This Yes, Guy James That's impervious to stress, outwardly, inwardly. I'm self medicating with alcohol or a bunch of other stuff just to cope. But outwardly, nobody knew that. I didn't see it. So if you're the alternate part of your question would be, perhaps not to put questions in the hosts mouth. But that might be what what signs could others have seen? Sure. And the answer, Well, my dad sent me a text message once this all came out. Basically saying sorry, like expressing remorse, or perhaps even guilt that you haven't been able to protect me or seen it coming or support me better to avoid all this coming to a head? And I'd said to him, then I'd say to him now, how could you? Firstly, because I didn't really know. And I wasn't looking also a bloody good at hiding it. Really, really convincing at projecting what I thought strength look like. And I was really invested in everyone else believing it. And they were invested in believing it too. So we're all invested in believing the shroud. So why would they pick under the cover of that? And even if they tried, it wouldn't let them I would explain it away, brush it off. And we'll just display more of those characteristics that everybody liked. So it wasn't Yes, the culture was an enabler of that. They were very comfortable with me over delivering all the time. And so was I. So why would we rock that boat?

Russel Lolacher
So now you're on the other? I guess we're trying to get on the other side of this. I mean, now you're an advocate of this. Now you're trying to help people not get to where you got, basically, how do you get to a point to rebuild yourself to a place where you don't feel like you're going to break down in a pub?

James Pickles
How do I...?

Russel Lolacher
How did you get here? Because I mean, obviously, you got to a point where you had to completely break down and be off work for nine months. But now you're in a quite a different place, we wouldn't be able to have this conversation if you weren't as self reflective, self aware. And now being an advocate for mental health. What were some of the things you did to sort of rebuild yourself, I guess.

James Pickles 
Ah, so it took a couple of pretty significant philosophical changes, if you like I had I chose to do things differently. Firstly, it would have been kind of in one way, the easier option would be not to change anything. So just rest sufficiently to be able to go back back to work and do it again, in largely the same way as I've done it before. And that's where my comment of if I'd done that I'd have died came from bearing in mind, if I zoom back into the into the past, again into 2018, that I once slid down the wall in a boardroom thinking I was having a heart attack that was going to actually die on the floor, and spent five hours in the emergency room, finding out whether or not I'd had some kind of cardiac arrest, I need to discover that I had none. There was no evidence, there's no physical evidence whatsoever, of any kind of ailment. So the only possible explanation was there was not physical but mental. But I wasn't prepared to entertain that idea then. So I explained that way something else and totally ignored it. So that was strike 1, 2018 May. Strike two March 2019, massive 10 Day burnout. Leaving me well, the only reason I left work in the end, actually, Russel, having had this huge public burnout was because eight days later, I'd lost the power of speech. And shortly before that, I'd lost the ability to read, which is quite hard to know what your how to navigate your to do list if you can no longer read it. And that happened in the office goes relentlessly, just trying harder to have have a better to do list. I'll figure this out by myself, which I thought was what was required here, because I'm a tough autonomous leader. Therefore, I ought to have all the answers and I ought to be able to self solve. So what did I learn to do differently? Well, firstly, admitted that I was ill set out, secondly, sought help asked for help, which I wouldn't have done before. Thirdly, accepted it. As in, ask for help and then accept the help I'm not sure they always live together, asking for help, but then knotting it's not accepting it or not throwing yourself into it, I think it's definitely a thing. And through that I found a therapist that I could work with. And I hasten to add, there are many types of therapists, therapeutic approaches, there are many, many therapists. And just because you don't like the first one doesn't mean that therapy's not for you just means you haven't found your own therapist yet. So carry on looking, I'd say, I found one for me. And I learned to talk. And I don't mean regain the power of speech that happened quite quickly. But I had never in my adult life, probably since being a teenager, really. I didn't know how to tell the truth about certain thoughts and feelings, but didn't have the vocabulary different definitely didn't have the courage and I hadn't practiced. So learning to talk was hugely significant. And knowing what it was to be listened to, really, really listened to by somebody who doesn't interrupt you, and doesn't offer unsolicited advice or solutions. Because you didn't ask for one. But they love you. So they want to offer and they want to solve. And if you you know, I was a boss, and I did this millions of times people came into my office with a problem if they're upset or whatever, I'd want to solve it, I want to take it away for them. And that's what a lot of that happened in the beginning. So where are we? So I learned to talk, I learned to listen and learn to ask for help, not just then. But again, and again, since then, it's okay to ask for help. It works much better if you accept the help that you've asked for than not. And the other thing I kind of realized why she was really incredible to me might be obvious to others. I realized that I had I was never in fact alone. I just didn't know it. I thought that I was the only one that felt broken alone and embarrassed, and nobody would understand it. Only to discover that once I told the truth, if I thought somebody's asking an actual question, how are you really, and if I just told them, that it wasn't a burden to them, that I wasn't wasting the time of boring them wasn't a burden, it could be a gift. Because if I was alright, telling the truth, it made it alright for them to tell the truth and in return. So I had a huge amount of these conversations many with people I've known for 1015 20 years, completely redefined some of the parameters of the relationships that are important to me. I told the truth, and they told me their truth. And I was like, Oh, it's a revelation. I never knew that about you. And I go, I know, and I didn't know that about you. And now here we are having a mutually beneficial reciprocal, open conversation with somebody I've known for 25 years. Why did it take so long? So that openness was a revelation to me. And the idea that ties it all together? Is I never needed to do it by myself. But I thought that I did. And when I say it, yes, I do mean recovering from what's frankly, pretty shipped over my life. That was horrible. But I never needed to do it by myself. I never needed to solve really any problems by myself. I don't know what it was in May that compelled me to think I had to be this like heroic lone wolf character. Where I was only ever good if I had come up with all the answers. Support doesn't mean solve, which means support, constantly, listen, commit, just mean sit there. Give your time, give your attention. Just be there to listen.

Russel Lolacher
So now you're in a situation where you're speaking to others, you're going out having motivational talks with others to sort of fill those gaps for them to get their awareness around this situation and use you as a cautionary tale more than anything else. What have you been hearing from others, when they come back to you going this resonated with me, that resonated with me.

James Pickles
So the story ranges, and it picks up on various things. So people, different parts of it resonate with different people, but the the phrase that comes up over and over and over again. And I used to assume Russel that the people with whom it would resonate the most would be the people who most closely look like me. And I don't mean, six foot one 200 pound rate and reasonably good shape father of two, that's white. I don't really mean that, although there is some of that. So it's just as many men and women actually that seemed to come up that and it can't be coincidence that very often they're in a managerial position. So they're looking after them, not just their own target. They're looking after a team target and some other humans. The thing that continues to kind of surprise me as the extent to which somebody comes up, like eyes wide open going, I can't believe it. It's like you've just told my story to me. Like it's not just read And the points is that it all resonate the entirety of the story. Like the commonalities. So many, they almost think that I've got into their head, and just describing their life to them. The interesting thing about that is they, they pick up on the bits that resonate, and they ignore the rest. So it's not like the it's true, not exactly the same as them, but there's so much of it, they can't believe it. The other thing that comes up a lot, particularly from doing face to face, mostly in hybrid and zoom anyway, but it doesn't doesn't matter. The thing that's most amazing is when we get to the q&a, and it's when people are not even asking questions. It's the bit that love the most. But it's dressed up as a question. Actually, they make statements. And the bits that are that I love is when the most senior people in the room, firstly show up. Secondly, they'll usually say something like, if they're being super honest, they'd go, I didn't think this was really for me, and only came because my head of people told me to, or head of HR or whatever, only came to be polite. And in fact, I intended to leave halfway through. I didn't think it was for me, I knew it'd be good for the team, I didn't think it's for me, it's like this divide. Somehow there's this divide between the team and the management. That means that they're not all the same human beings at heart. And that's where I think the resonance comes from as people who run run teams feel like they somehow are totally responsible for the success and well being of each person that reports to them to the exclusion of themselves. Like they're forgetting to look out for themselves. And then they realize that what that means for role modeling, so if they're not looking after themselves at all, or if they are, they're not displaying it, what does that say about the example that you're setting? And how are they supposed to follow it? Otherwise, we're in tokenism, do what I say not what I do. And that's not how humans learn. They learn from observation. And by copying what they observe, copying what they see. So that's where cut of our culture is really interesting. Oh, but we have a great organizational culture here. We've got some fantastic words that we print on the wall. But it's a well our culture. Organizational culture is a verb that we observe and feel by actions that we display consciously or unconsciously. That's where culture lives. And again, all these senior managers like the penny drops, and the like, oh, yeah, I now get it, I now get that rather than labeling these times that I steal out of my calendar, labeling them private appointment. But actually what I'm doing is go for a run, or walking my dog, or taking my kids to sports practice or whatever, why am I hiding that away? I should be proudly displaying that. There are things I need to do in my day for me to operate at a high level sustainably, and some of those things aren't work, to your point earlier about work life balance. Is there such a thing? No, there's just life. There's balance within it. Works part of life and lifespan of work, particularly now, hybrid? How do you tell the difference? I'm talking to you in my kitchen, which I also do some work in, and a cook. So where's the overlap? Actually, I've got an officer back to which I would advocate but my wife's in it. So she doesn't like to be interrupted.

Russel Lolacher
All this leads perfectly into my last question, which is what's one simple action people can do right now, to improve those relationships at work.

James Pickles
And at risk of perhaps being even too simple. know in your heart, that you're in charge of several things. And there's one big thing you're not in charge of. You are in charge of giving a shit about the people that you work with, up or down or sideways. You're in charge of whether you care about them or not. You're in charge of whether you inquire as to how they're doing. You're in charge of whether or not you listen to the answer answers, you're in charge of how much time and importance you give, to how long those answers might take. You're in charge of all of those things. You're not in charge of the solution. It's not your job to provide it. There are specialists professionals left and right, that specialize in this stuff. So not only is it not your job, to provide the solution to somebody who's in pain, it's inappropriate for you to try and do so. It's unethical is unsafe even for you to put yourself in that role. Just because you've watched a YouTube video on open heart surgery on Discovery Channel doesn't qualify you to do it. So why would you have a go? Just because someone's in pain in front of you. You wouldn't get your knives out. And just because someone's in emotional pain in front of you and you want to solve it doesn't mean you should so let's just remember what we're in charge of and what we're not.

Russel Lolacher
That is James Pickles. He's a mental health advocate and motivational speaker easy executive coach for James Pickles Coaching helping his clients with yeah I'm gonna pull this one again clarity conciseness and confidence. Thank you very much James for being here

James Pickles
Thanks Russel, good to do it.