In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with SaaS Head of Support and Training and emerging leader Reagan Helms on his experience in learning to lead by example.
Reagan shares his thoughts and experience with...
If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and share with others.
For more, go to relationshipsatwork.ca
And connect with me for more great content!
In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with SaaS Head of Support and Training and emerging leader Reagan Helms on his experience in learning to lead by example.
Reagan shares his thoughts and experience with...
If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and share with others.
For more, go to relationshipsatwork.ca
And connect with me for more great content!
Russel Lolacher
Here we have the man Reagan Helms. And here's why he's awesome. He's the head of support and training at the Planning Center, which builds applications specifically for churches, which worried the shit out of me when I read that because I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna have to not be able to swear, fuck, okay, well, we'll keep trying, we'll keep trying Reagan, he helps build their high performing support team from three to 30, leading that team for the last seven years, he also moved to his current position at the beginning of the pandemic. So kind of learning how to lead right from the start of a pandemic. Fun times, I'm sure fun times. Also fun fact, he's the oldest of five. So probably been doing a little bit of that leadership stuff back in the day. And today, we're gonna be talking about leading by example. Welcome to show Regan.
Reagan Helms
Thanks, Russel. Great to be here.
Russel Lolacher
What's the best and or worst or worst employee experience you've ever had?
Reagan Helms
All right, I have, I have kind of a, it's not a two-fer. I'm not gonna like try to give you two stories. It's the same story at the moment that it happened, it was the worst thing that ever happened to me. And now looking back on it, it's one of the funniest things and the funniest things I've ever had happen. So I'll have a teaser, go ahead. When I first became a Support Manager, we used to do these remote trainings all over the country, like we would go to a conference or something. And so because we were there locally, we'd find a customer that would host us and we do like these on site trainings. So one of my first early tasks was, all of our support team was going to go to this national conference in Chicago. But on the way I was going to split us in half and half of us were going to go to like, Columbus, Ohio, and the other half, we're gonna go to Michigan, and do these trainings. And then we were going to meet up in Chicago that night, do one more training, and then we're gonna go to the conference for ourselves. The next day, it was very ambitious. Looking back on it, everything worked out super smoothly. I had, like 15 people that were gonna go to these different things and do all this stuff. We get down to San Diego airport, we're on the plane to leave the airport literally in our seats buckled in. And they announced that one of the radio towers blew over in the Mojave Desert, and all flights from the west coast were put on hold. So we get out of this airplane. And it's literally like a scene from walking dead or any zombie movie you've ever seen. People are like, running around jumping over help desks, like yelling at employees. And I'm, I'm just losing it. Because I'm like, How are we going to do this, like, I'm going to have to cancel these trainings with like, there's probably like 100 or 200 people to enter customers like coming to these trainings the next morning, and we can't get out. So I'm sweating bullets. Look very, it's a very long story to cut it short, my friend and I could not get a flight to Michigan. So we ended up sleeping in Chicago O'Hare Airport for like two hours that night caught the commuter flight the next morning, one of our hosts at the at the church that we were doing the training in Michigan, she was like a power user. And the first time I'd ever met this lady in person, when we got there, she had like breakfast for us. She had like a the gym had a shower, she'd open the gym for us so that we could take a shower, she's like, I set up this little like couch in here so that one of you can take a nap while the other one's going to teach. And so basically, we met this person that ended up actually coming to work for us. She ended up becoming a customer support agent. And then my friend and I flew out to Chicago that night and like slept in the car while the rest of the team did the training. So anyway, it was like the worst experience I've ever had. But it ended up like bringing on a superstar employee and it also Yeah, it's just super funny. Like, I can still walk through Chicago O'Hare and look at that. Look at the Southwest bench. And I'm like, Oh, I pushed those two benches together. And I slept there right in front of this McDonald's.
Russel Lolacher
That was my home for a night.
Reagan Helms
Yeah, it was my well, kind of Yeah.
Russel Lolacher
So little inside baseball. My very first guest Leslie O'Flahavan was a fan of the show. She had a really good time. I'm a big fan of Lesley. So anything that comes out of her mouth, I'm like, I'm all ears. So when she wrapped up her episode, she was like, Oh, I've got people you need to talk to and she threw me three names. Yours was one of them. Because she said when she worked with your organization, she was just blown away and thrilled by how engaged your team was how much they really were a part of purpose and vision and service. So she really wanted to sort of get me to dig into your success. I'm gonna say it success. So how do you want to define leading by example?
Reagan Helms
You know, I think people know this when they see it. There's a lot of historical examples of leaders that have led by example, I think that everybody has had it If that teacher or maybe some kind of a mentor, or maybe even like a peer at a workplace that they've worked alongside that has just really not been afraid to get in and get their hands dirty, and be willing to help people, regardless of, or in spite of maybe even their circumstances, you know, someone that takes something that might seem humdrum or mundane and make it applicable, make, convey their passion for that thing to the people that follow them, or that rely on them in the case of a teacher, you know, so, to me, that's kind of what leading by example, in a nutshell kind of is, is it something that as a follower, you resonate with that person in charge, like, I want to have the same fire, this same passion, the same drive that this person has, and this person's not above my situation or my circumstances, they're willing to, to walk through this with me or even willing to, like, put themselves on the line for me, you know.
Russel Lolacher
And I'm curious to hear how you do it with your team. But first, I want to kind of get a little personal and ask, are there any examples of people in your career that has sort of been leaders by example for you? And what made them so?
Reagan Helms
Sure, yeah, my career is, is probably pretty short. In comparison. I mean, I've only been in the workforce for 12 years. But, you know, I think that growing up, I've seen I've had a lot of examples of mentors in my life, whether through school, or through sports, that there are coaches, people that are willing to like, get in there with me, I, my parents, obviously, are people like that, as well. But I think Jeff, our CEO, at Planning Center, he is the same type of a person he is all about. He has created this space that people want to work at that people he's passionate about what we do, and the products that we build, and the church in general. And so I think that that is kind of where this has to start, you know, is that the leadership at whatever level you're leading by example, that has to be bought in as well and want to create a place where people can, can thrive?
Russel Lolacher
Yeah, and I always find it interesting that if, if you're going to lead by example, that a lot of those leaders are also learning to lead by watching others lead by example. So it's kind of curious if there was any, in your career that is sort of like, that's the kind of leader I want to be. And so you're saying your CEO,
Reagan Helms
You know, Jeff is all about not asking people to do things that he's not willing to do himself. So he has, you know, he logs his vacation time, along with all of ours. And we actually have, like, a metaphor of who's out today. So we see when Jeff's out, like, he shares personal information with us about that, as well, and has been very open with people at the company about things that he you know, is going through or personally that, you know, like, oh, couldn't come into work today had this family thing going on. So that's just a super basic example. But another thing that Jeff likes to say is, you know, the day that, that I don't want to be here is the day that I'm out. Like, he's, he's like, I I'm here, because I want to be I'm not here because I want to make money. I have plenty of money. I'm not here because, you know, I want to be famous or any of those types of things. He's like, I'm here, because I'm passionate about what we do. And I think that that you can't fake that, you know, that gets conveyed to everybody. That's a part of our team at Planning Center, so.
Russel Lolacher
Awesome. So a lot of the passion that you can see, right, and I'm so let's it's not about Jeff, it's about you, Reagan. So our question, a really good way of really understanding something is also understanding the opposite of it, leading by example, what is the opposite of that?
Reagan Helms
You know, I think that there are a few different forms of that. I don't think it's like a binary thing. I think that leadership that's out of touch people that don't know what they're asking their employees, or the people that they're leading to do. You know, I think that we've all had that boss, or the person we're contracting with, or whatever they are, that's like, oh, you could do this. This is easy. And it's like, you have no idea how difficult what you're doing to ask me is like, you know, you should ask me this two weeks ago, not an hour ago. So I think that's one example. I think another one would be people that are that kind of treat people like peons. They're just like you know, I am just above where you're at. I am so much cooler than you I am so much more important than you. I can't even just even talking to you right now is wasting company dollars wasting my time. You're You're beneath me, you know, and I think that we have plenty examples to see of that in recent leadership all over the world. We'll just keep it at that.
Russel Lolacher
It's like you have an org chart on the wall that they just keep looking up to and tearing up looking at their importance. is how high they are on it. Yeah, I guess a big fan of flattening org charts for sure. So when did you first start to realize in your career, I mean, you say it's only been 12 years, but 12 years is a good chunk of time to sort of weave your way into the leadership way of the world. So when did you first start realizing that leading by example is an important thing to do? Like you're looking at, you're suddenly managing staff? Or you're seeing a great example, like a Jeff CEO? Jeff, we'll just call him that. When did you sort of go? Okay, yeah, that's, I have to start doing this.
Reagan Helms
Well, I think like most people in the startup world, you know, I went from being an individual contributor to being a manager. It's like, Hey, guy that's so good at doing this thing. Why don't you show these four or five other people how to do this same thing. And you're like, that is not, not, I don't think I realized this at the time. But now, especially years later, like, that is not the job I was hired to do. Like, just because you're the best thing at something doesn't mean you are equipped to train or manage people to do that same thing. But I'm really glad that, you know, I'm not complaining about the circumstances that I'm in. But that being said, I think that when I realized, this was when I went from being like an individual contributor, that was the best data thing. Realizing that I can't, my role in that has changed, like I can still if I want to, if I'm not a trusting person, if I'm not willing to help others succeed, I could still do all of those things that I want to do, or that I'm was really good at. But I'm limited in my time and resources to be able to do that, you know, as a customer support agent, I could help maybe the closer site of 100 people a day. But if I have four or five agents that I'm equipping to be, this is a little conceited, I guess, but kind of like me, or at least, you know, learning the things, the tools and the the tactics that I had that made me successful at that job. Now, my impact is four or five times greater for our customers than it is just holding on to the things that I was comfortable with, or the things that, you know, were easy.
Russel Lolacher
What does that look like behaviour wise? What are you doing to define leadership as you want to perpetuate it?
Reagan Helms
I think that staying in touch with what I am asking people to do, obviously, we've talked about that a little bit already. But you know, not losing touch of or losing sight of when I make this decision as a leader or when I asked people to, you know, what are the what are the pros and cons of that decision for my employees or the people that I work with, I always hate saying employees, I say people I work with, because, you know, flat org charts and all that, but I think that these people are all, they all have their own lives, their own passions, the things that they're interested in. And I think one of my jobs as a leader is to, is to not like rein in that passion or, or change who they are as a person, it's about meeting them where they're at, and empowering them to use those talents and gifts for what we're trying to do as a team. So I think that that involves, you know, the name of the podcast relationships at work, it involves you actually getting to know these people, spending time with them. And then just doing great work together, like realizing that, you know, maybe one of my employees, co workers, one of my co workers is really fast and efficient, but they're not necessarily the most warm or loving person. But on the flip side, you know, we have somebody that is not quite as fast, maybe they do, you know, 60% of that other person's output, but that doesn't make them any less valuable to the team, especially on a support team. We need people to be loving and compassionate. We need people to go in there and have empathy for customers. So those two, those OKRs (objectives and key results) don't match up, right? If you're looking at it just from a numbers perspective, but that doesn't mean that those people aren't of equal value, or rather, you know, bring their own values to the team that are equally important.
Russel Lolacher
So I love that you're talking about personalization, because as much as I said, love when people say, you know, my team, my team, my team, I'm like, that's a group of individuals, hopefully all pulling in the same direction. A team is how they work, but individuals is who they are. So as a leader leading by example, how do you get to know your staff better? How can you demonstrate how that's done?
Reagan Helms
I think it's not as uncommon anymore to have one on ones be a part of leadership conversation at work, especially over Zoom. And during the pandemic, in some cases, that that was a pretty common thing before that, but now I think it's pretty regular. If you're not meeting with your people, at least monthly, if not more than that, then I would argue that you don't really know them as people, I think that there is designated time in those meetings to just let people be people and to unpack with them, what they're going through what's, why they're being successful at work, or why they're not being successful at work, and not in a way that it's like, well, am I gonna get in trouble, like my managers asking about my kids about what I'm doing outside of work, how my appointment went the other day? Like, those are all things that, you know, maybe they maybe they're out to get me, maybe they're trying to, you know, catch me in something. And I think that, you know, it has to be an authentic thing. I think that creating space and time in a meeting that you have one on one with an employee to just let them be themselves and to get to understand them even just a little bit. And then in addition to that, don't just be asking that to, to check a box, like actually follow up with that person about that, like, Hey, how's your mom? I know she was sick last week? Is she doing better? Are you going to need to go out there? Do you need some, you know, you've got like, a week of vacation time, would you like to use any of that coming up? I think that all of those things are very, very easy things for you to do as a manager, right, you have access to their time off you have access to and should be encouraging them to use that in a in a way that is healthy for them. But I think that it goes a long way. Because people you know, it's easy to take a note, it's easy to set a reminder and be like, oh, yeah, Russel's mom is sick, I should ask him about that. And like two or three days or in our next one on one. You know, I think that as a leader, that's your, I would argue that that's your responsibility. It's your job to to make sure that these people feel seen and understood and recognized for being people.
Russel Lolacher
People overthink this too, because they'll be like, "Okay, do I have to do that? And okay, yeah, I did that. Yep, I did that." When we all have relationships at home. We know how to make friends. We know we we've been doing this our whole lives. But then you put that professional environment in and people immediately go, oh, is it weird for me to ask you what movie you saw recently? That feels weird to ask, what does that imply? Maybe it's a movie I'm not going to like, like, it's just this amazing sort of in your head environment, where it's just be a freaking human being you might be pushing and pulling against the whole extrovert, introvert, social comfort thing. But there is this little bit of effort that involves humanity that that is funny, that gets lost when people start talking leadership. And they forget that it's just about being a nice person to another person. And why actually interested in them?
Reagan Helms
Yeah, I think that people see leadership as like having to be strong having to, you know, like, and so therefore any vulnerability or even like humanity in some regard, if you're in a really unhealthy relationship, like this is a weakness, right? It's like I can't I can't stoop down to their level. I can't admit that I'm a person, I'm their boss, I sign their check. I have to be, you know, I am Oz, the great and powerful like they have to be this specter of person. They're not even who they are. And I think that that is that's just lame. Like, that's a that's not a good relationship to have. I don't want to have that type of a relationship with anybody that that I work with. I don't want that type of relationship with anybody in my life. I think, you know, I've had one on ones that I've just talked about Ozark like, because that person send to Ozark I'm in to Ozark. And so I think that, you know, you it's easy as a manager to check out of that to close that Zoom call and be like, Well, that was a bunch of time wasted. It's not time wasted. You got to you made a connection with that person. You got to know that person. And so knowing that, you know, when the next season of those are drops and they're putting in a sick time, you can give them a little wink and be like, Okay, well, maybe next time don't stay up till 2am Watching watching Ozark. But I got you, you know,
Russel Lolacher
You're a new leader, you are in a position. I mean, I hate the leadership position thing because leadership is not a positional thing. But you have the responsibility of a team. Like what did you do when you first took over your team? It back a couple years ago? What were some of the things you're like, Okay, I need I need to set the tone right away and demonstrate my leadership. What did you do?
Reagan Helms
I wish it was that much of a light switch that I just all sudden realized. Okay, well, I need to set the tone right away in order to be a good leader. I think I had to get hit over the head a few times with some bad 360 reviews to realize, oh, yeah, okay, I need to actually change my attitude about this whole thing, it's I'm not going to be able, you know, this, this rock star I see anymore, I need to actually have people that, that I enable and empower. So... and to go to your to go to your point Russel a little bit, I think that this can start when you're not a leader, like you don't have to be a leader to lead by example, either. In fact, I think some of the best leaders, by example, are co workers that are peers, or people that are just, you know, volunteering alongside you. I've seen a lot, you know, I think that you actually in the, in the actual, like, dictionary term, you're able to show examples, the best way when people are not intimidated by your status, right? They're, you're showing up and you're getting the work done, and they see you as a mentor or an advisor, or even like a role model that, you know, Oh, wow. Well, I want to be like that guy, that guy knows what's going on, you know, Hey, dude, what's your secret? You know, I think that those are, that's where that type of one on one relationship is really powerful. And so it actually makes it a little bit easier when that person does, you know, eventually become a leader, like I did to kind of have a group of people that can rally around you, and build you up as much as you build them up and be like, Okay, now we can actually do something because now I have the ability to kind of impact change, as well as show you guys how to do this the best way.
Russel Lolacher
Is that would happen to you. I mean, after a couple shitty 360s...What what did you do to turn it around?
Reagan Helms
Yeah, so that was gonna say, getting back on topic of people were afraid of me. They were intimidated by me. So when I saw at that time, I was also like, in the support queue a lot. I was also doing tickets. And again, I'm a very competitive person by nature, I think that my leadership role, my marriage, and Fatherhood has kind of beat that out of me a little bit in a good way of like, Hey, man, you don't always have to be the best, you don't have to show people's face in the dirt. But at this time, in my in my infancy of this role, I saw that as like a threat to me, I was, you know, I saw it as, look how valuable I am. And you are not only like derailing my train of thought, which is annoying, but you're taking my time away from something that I could be doing, right. So people were just afraid to interrupt me. And I think when people people would say I feel like whenever I talk to Reagan, I'm not necessarily talking to like someone that's going to coach me as much as like the captain of the team, like the Rockstar jock that's just gonna, you know, punch me in the face if he gets annoyed by me. And I don't know where I stand with him. And I thought, well, I, I feel like I make myself very approachable. Like, I sit with my team. I don't put my headphones on. I tell people all the time, like, hey, feel free to come talk to me if they need to. And people were like, it's just your face. Like, they're like, when I come over to you. And I'm like, Hey, Reagan, and you turn and look at me. It's like, you're like so annoyed, appalled, like, how dare you talk to me. And I was like, well, I need with my body language, actually, you know, show what I what I'm trying to do on the inside, which is like, be accessible to these people. Be empathetic for these people. And I think that goes to, to actually thinking of them as people and thinking of it like a relationship. You know, obviously, if you have a significant other in your life or a family member, they know when you're in a bad mood. And I think that it's the same if you're on a small team, or if you've had any type of a relational breakthrough with people that that work with you. They that like you said, they they see right through all that they know exactly what is, you know, your face might be saying something different than what your words are saying. But it's really important that you, that you mean it all the way.
Russel Lolacher
Feedback, sort of giving you that moment to go, Oh, damn, my self-perception of myself is not what I thought it was. How has feedback been a part of your leadership moving forward? If you're going to lead by example, how is that been relevant?
Reagan Helms
You know, that that review was was really hard to take. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I think that those types of personality tics or quirks, those don't change overnight, you know, this is not a light switch. Like I said earlier, I wish that it was I wish that I could just be like tomorrow I'm going to be a better leader. I'm going to lead by example. I'm going to be relatable. I'm going to have empathy. I'm going Going To Show humanity I'm going to be vulnerable. Those are all very difficult skills to acquire as a human being. And some of them are things that always require work. Like some of them are just not part of my personality, you know, good commending people celebrating, celebrating people. Those are not necessarily my strong suits. And I think that that was some of the feedback that I got was like, you know, you're so quick to like, jump on anything that I do wrong, but you never tell me anything I do. Right. And so I, I think that this requires work. From the leadership side, it requires looking at yourself, it requires looking at yourself with a lens and saying, Okay, if I know this to about myself to be true, and I know this part about my, my personality to be inherent about just kind of the person I am the upbringing I've had the trauma that I've gone through, you know, we're all broken people. What hacks, what shortcuts can I do, that are also part of my personality? Right? So for me, I'm very much like, I want all the list items checked off. If there's a badge notification on my phone, I want it to go away. So for me, it was like, Okay, I'm really good and quick to, to judge or to come down on people for things that they do wrong. I need to make sure that when I see things people do, right, I'm equally as quick.
Russel Lolacher
We talked boundaries earlier. And I always associate boundaries, generally with your values, because you're either trying to be true to yourself or not based of how you line up your boundaries, and how well you communicate those boundaries. How are you communicating? How are you demonstrating values that shows leadership?
Reagan Helms
I think that my values have changed a lot since I first became a leader. Because since becoming a leader, I've become married and become a father. And I think that all those big life shifts, help you kind of realize some perspective on things. And so I think that my values are. I'm not too good to sit down with a particular group of people or I. So I do have empathy for people that work for me or people that I work alongside. I think that humility and vulnerability, those are two that I really feel like I have where, you know, I lead from a place of openness and curiosity. I don't like to get closed off or defensive, when people are trying to question the things that I'm doing or the way that I'm leading. I think that need to be right just has to go right out the window. And I think you learned that as a parent very early on, especially a parent of very young children is, you know, if you if you both need to be right, I think there's definitely things that are important to be right about. But you know, anyone that's parented, a toddler will know that they think that they're right, as well. And you'll be up all night arguing about that. I think that putting others ahead of yourself is a really important value. And I think that that also is something that can't be faked very well. I think people know, when you're when you're faking it, just like you said, I think that any of these things, if you're trying to fake it, it's going to backfire on you because people people intuitively understand these these things.
Russel Lolacher
What role does communication play? When it comes to communicating with your team.
Reagan Helms
I don't think you can have a connection, without some form of communication, I would also say that it's more important to have as much of personal or this is not necessarily the right word, but it's the word that I can't get past physical communication. But what I mean by that is like, when you can, when you can get on the phone with somebody and use your voice, you should, when you can get on Zoom and use your face, that's better. And being in person is even better than that, you know, having that being willing to devote as much of yourself to the conversation and to the situation, I think is, is really powerful. I think that it also creates less space to be misunderstood. So over text, obviously is though, is the least valuable of these because it's so easy for me to read my own words and think this is this is fine. But it's so also so easy for my words to be read on the other side of that conversation exactly the wrong way. And I think that those it's a lot faster, it's a lot more efficient, but it it definitely comes with it. To own ability for error on either end, and how do you communicate with your team? Whenever possible, I tried to do it in an in person way, or at least over zoom, you know, our team is all over the country. So I don't have the convenience of being together. But one of the things that we built into Planning Center culture is what we call remote weeks. Although now we should just call them weeks, because now everybody's remote. But we bring everybody in at least once a quarter or somewhere in the country as a team. We're together and spending time with each other, not necessarily even at the office, at lunches or during meetings, but also creating time outside of work to just connect as people. I've made an agreement with my wife that like I'm here, but I'm not here because I have to be with my people as much as possible. Now, as much as I can I try to make time for you know, yeah, let's go out and get a drink. Let's go out to the movies and then go go home, or let's have a game night, let's, let's just hang out after work and like, go on a walk or like just catch up, because I haven't seen you in three months. So I think that all those things. That again, in saying them out loud, they don't seem super significant. It's like okay, yeah, I mean, like, I love I love free drinks, I love going to the movies, I love, you know, long walks on the beach, I guess. But like, it means something to those other people, especially those relationships are important. And they it does carry forward when we do have to have those difficult conversations when we do have an emergency where we have to pull long hours. I'm I'm right there with them. And I and it's it makes those conversations a lot easier.
Russel Lolacher
Got it. So we are the Relationships at Work podcast about employee experience and workplace culture. So what from your experience and your knowledge? What do you think is one simple action that people can do right now to improve those relationships at work?
Reagan Helms
It doesn't take a lot to send a simple message to somebody. I think that one of the important things is celebrating achievements. And so whenever you notice something, as a manager, you're like, wow, that person went above and beyond are they really impressed me today. I think that it's easy to have those thoughts in your head and think that that the person knows that you're thinking that. Just take the extra step, whether you're saying it verbally over text over an email, if you're old school Telegram, if you're if you're really old school, I think it's important to just to verbalize and vocalize those things say, Hey, I see you. I saw what you did. That was That was amazing. You did a good job. And it's hard because sometimes those things do fall under their normal day job. It's like, well, they just did what I pay them to do every day. But I think that if you want to take it a step further, you just need to start small. Just Hey, I see you. I understand what your what you did there. And I think that you did a really good job.
Russel Lolacher
We'll leave it at that. Reagan, we're done. Thank you so much for your time, sir.
Reagan Helms
Thank you, Russel. It was fun. It's great to meet you. Wish we could talk more, I can talk for forever.